Unsafe Flag Points

[flaggie1]

Last weekend i had the pleasure of marshalling at RD 2 of the State Series at Sandown. Sandown is currently in the middle of track works which will realign the track and make the track faster. The previous weekend at an Observed Licence Evaluation our Chief reiceived 2 phone calls one to say the meeting had been cancelled due to unsafe track,(at that point there was no armco between turns 12 and 14 and there was about 60 cubic metres of soil on the track). The second phone call informed us that the meet was back on. When we all arrived bright and early at 7:00am for sign on our Chief of the day was out checking out the works. We all obtained our posts and myself along with our President had the job of turn 13. The point that cams track safety committee had created (NOW THERES A CONTRADICTION IN TERMS)consisted of a square of carpet on top of a 10 foot high mud pile 10 feet back from the track. We had no place to put any of our gear once 2 people stood on this square, we were unable to walk the track between races and there was a lack of info from our communicator. With 2 days of rain this area had become the proverbial "GLUE POT". This just made an uncomfortable situation for everyone concerned and i believe that it was unsafe and the competitors weren't paying attention to us. May question is to the fellow marshalls on this forum (and any drivers who dare to venture in) What would you consider an unsafe point and would you have tolerated the situation i was in on the weekend?

[TwoSheds]

I would consider any marshals post (point) to be unsafe if there was no clear escape route I couild use in case of emergency (f.ex. a car (or bits of) heading straight for me).

[flaggie1]

But if you had been given this point without knowing the conditions it would be in would you have taken it?

[Stephen Green]

Surely you can only make an informed decision once you are actually on the post or flag point. If at that stage yu deem it unsafe for yourself and fellow marshals, then you should refuse to work the post and ask to be placed elsewhere. If the organisers fail to do that for you then you have no other option other than to walk away and go home. There is absolutely no point in placing yourself or colleagues in danger. If others wish to do so, then it is their decision, you MUST do what your conciense tells you is right for YOU!

[Stephen Green]

Sorry, just realised I spelt concience incorrectly

[Maisie]

Make that twice - it's conscience

[BFC]

u big sook flaggie1 u were about 10' above track on top of mound u didnt need to run anywhere if car came in as for the Glue Pot whats abit of mud now and then.bet El Presidente never stopped whinging

[wickedwitch]

Originally posted by BFC
u big sook flaggie1 u were about 10' above track on top of mound u didnt need to run anywhere if car came in

Well, of course, in all our collective years of marshalling I'm sure none of us have ever seen cars mount high banks or fly more that 10ft in the air - NOT.

BFC, I've seen cars fly higher than that, and more to the point, I've seen debris and wheels fly higher. I, personally, would agree with TwoSheds that a post without a quick escape route is dangerous. We're supposed to be about safety - not would-be-heroes who infer that safety concerns are for wimps. I know that your post was meant in jest, but even so, I think it's wrong to disparage other marshals for being concerned about their own, and their colleagues', safety.

[theracegypsy]

When you've had the guy alongside you mained for life and the worker next to him killed you start taking post safety seriously.
There is no way I will ever work a post that I feel is unsafe, and I would never critise any of my crew who feel uncomfortable about a point.
I will even go further than TwoSheds, escape routes by themselves are not enough, you need to be positioned so you don't block sight lines and have some primary protection as well. Remember that while some series are comparitavly slow there are cars out there which can cover a 100yards per sec.

I am always aware of my signature line

[flaggie1]

Well BFC thats the kind of response i'd expect from a towy turd who was tucked up warm in his truck while we are doing our thing. Anyway i don't hold grudges. My gripe is the fact that cams track safety issued a permit and approved the flag point for us to operate from. As for walking away i don't think that would have been an option. There would have been no one else who would of manned the post. But in hindsight and talking to some of my colleagues maybe that is what we should have done. The only way that cams will listen to the "VOLUNTEERS" that work trackside maybe we need to walk any from a meeting that will bring the issue to head. But that is a last resort, i have since penned a letter to the person who issued the permit(His brother works with my father) and have asked for these questions to be addressed. I will let you know how i fair. The escape route issue also was a problem and there was no way that if a couple of openwheelers got together they would have landed in our lap b 4 we could say INCOMING.

[Flaggie]

If it was as bad as you say, how come the Clerk of Course and Stewards let it pass? To say nothing of the Chiefy? I do admit it sounds iffy, though. But who am I to judge, I was freezing my bits off at the Winton Superkarts...

[Stephen Green]

It seems to me that the stewards and clerk of the course in fact do very little, regardless of which country we are marshalling in. No-one wishes to stop race meetings but there comes a time when your personal safety comes before all else, regardless of who it upsets. I think the idea of writing first in order to make your grievance's known is the right first step. If after that nothing gets done, then the orgainsers should be made aware that they are likely to be a be a few marshals short.

I was at the same meeting as racegypsey when one marshal died and the other lost a leg, and I can assure you all that it opened my eyes very wide, extremely quickly!

[Morris 1100]

I have had the pleasure of getting my car on top of a concrete wall and sliding along it for a fair distance with a pair of flaggies that were on top of the wall, in my sights.
I missed the flaggies but run over the teddy bear that they left behind!
After this I spoke to a member of the CAMS (Crimes against Motor Sport) track safety committee and said that I was not happy with the way the concrete wall was sloped to launch the cars up onto it and also the way the flaggies were exposed with no escape route (big drop behind them) and within a decade they fixed it!(no point rushing into it

This happened at Bathurst in 1995 Ask Les Robards (If you know him) he was one of the flaggies that I nearly run over!

[BFC]

yes my post was in jest (just stirring) i know what it is like standing at flagpoints 14 yrs of it have been attacked by moving vehicles and no i was not tucked up warm in the truck was out watching enjoying BBQ them hamburgers were nice. from what i saw armco fence and tyrewall was no worse than some points on other tracks there was plenty runoff they'd get bogged anyway in the MUD.

[Stephen Green]

It all comes down to the fact that marshals are in some peoples eyes 'a necessary evil' and very little is done to keep them safe not only from errant cars, but also flying debris. How many of us have marshalled at circuits where the oak posts that hold armco barries up, are rotten through with age? It really is about time the stewards of the meeting got out of the course car once in a while, checked the circuit from the other side of the barrier before allowing proceedings to continue!

[BFC]

we use steel posts on our fences over here they tend to move when cars hit just put wedges behind posts when straightened the tyre walls are the ones u got to worry about cars hit them and spits it back out stewards wont get out of cars they might get wet or sunburnt

[Peter Mallett]

My biggest crash (hopefully ever) was at Cadwell Park in 1995. My car's brakes failed at the end of Park Straight and I sailed across the grass, nosed into the tyre wall and flipped over it. Fortunately the Marshall's post was about five metres to my left (or right when inverted).

Bugger. I'm in the Marshalls forum again

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett


Bugger. I'm in the Marshalls forum again

and you're still spelling it wrong.....

BURN THE HERETIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Stephen Green]

Ahh but he's a nice heretic Terri

[flaggie1]

Well i have reiceived the reply from Cams this afternoon and the reply was: "We felt that Track Safety was adequate and felt there was no reason to not give a permit". Well that shows you how idiotic Cams Track Safety is and they should spend a day on the wall with us marshals and see what we have to put up with.

[Stephen Green]

So why not send them an invitation to do just that?

The worse case scenario is they say no. You may just get somewhere with some perseverence!

[flaggie1]

I can't honsetly see Track stewards or Clerk of the Course spending a day on a flag point. Hey it's hard enough to get a V8 touring car driver to do a day!

Anywho i have been told that by the time we head back there in July that the new track section and points that go with it will be in place.

[Stephen Green]

In that case it's probably best to see what the end result is like. But, if then you are still unhappy it is worth making a big noise as that is the only thing these people seem to understand.

[EvilPumpkin]

I'm with Stephen on this one - simply request that they send people out with the marshals for a day. If they refuse, ask them to provide their qualifications for verifying safety if they don't actually know what they're verifying safety FOR.

[flaggie1]

Good point EP and will suggest to the chief next time i see him. Being a health and safety rep at work i couldn't honestly see how a point could be created like that without taking into account the area and where the marshals would stand. But i'm just a marshal and our opinions obviously don't count for much in that respect. Anyway i'll wait and see how the works materialise and go from there.