[Rules] 2026 Power Units

[Richard C]

F1 is set to switch to a new set of specifications in 2022 for many parts of the car in 2022 (chassis, aero and even the wheels and tires). One thing that will remain unchanged is the power unit. However in 2025 that all changes. Most everyone recognizes that the current power unit specification is complex and expensive. There is also complaints from the fan about lack of sound (which has somewhat been addressed), but it remains that hardcore fans continue to remember past specifications much more fondly than the current.

F1 is targetting a "powerful and emotive" solution for 2025. They have listed five goals:

1. Environmental sustainability and social and automotive relevance
2. Fully sustainable fuel
3. Creating a powerful and emotive power unit
4. Significant cost reduction
5. Attractiveness to new power unit manufacturers

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1...77581/5477581/

As you can see one of those goals is to attract new power unit manufactures into the mix. That doesn't say "automobile manufactures", but many read that as the goal. F1 has been trying to pull in additional large corporate entities such as Volkswagen Auto Group (or their brands) into F1 for a long time.

Tomorrow (July 3rd) at the Austrian GP there will be a working group meeting to discuss the 2025 power unit. That includes...

* Ferrari
* Alpine/Renault
* Mercedes
* VAG (Audi chairman, VAG R&D head and Porsche CEO)
* Red Bull Powertrains

Note that that this includes current (plus next year) power unit suppliers as well as VAG. You don't see representatives from suppliers such as Gibson, Judd, etc. So clearly F1 is targeting auto manufactures and not independent power unit manufactures. Red Bull Powertrains is the odd one out, but they are clearly included because they are set to provide a power unit in 2022.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/a...eting/6623954/

The general thinking is that they will continue with a hybrid solution like today. There is a push for a renewable fuel for the ICE component. It is likely they will drop the MGU-H due to it's complexity, but may keep a turbo solution.

I broadly assume that the goal will be to drop the 2025 power unit directly into the 2022 spec. So that means that overall packaging and race distance fuel requirements can't be radically different because things like weight distribution, cooling needs, fuel cell size, etc. are core early design elements that will drive the 2022 solutions. Or maybe they expect teams to do a significant redesign in 2025?

I personally expect that they will roughly target a similar performance spec (maybe a bit more power) than what we will have in 2022. If they drop MGU-H, maybe they will increase the size of the battery to allow for more storage and release during a lap. I fully expect that whatever they do, they are looking to recoup as much R&D from the current spec and to reduce the overall manufacturing cost of each unit.

I wonder if there might be some type of "balance of performance" to ease someone like VAG into F1. So if they are lagging behind, they might get some type of boost. With the idea that the boost is not enough to win, but enough to not be embarrassingly slow. I know that suggestion is a total anathema to the core of what F1 has been. But I do wonder if it is considered. I personally would much rather the spec be "tight" enough that it's easy enough for someone like VAG to drop in with a competitive engine right away. Meaning the overall power units may not be revolutionary at all. A "tight" spec should also reduce costs and prevent run away R&D costs (significant diminishing returns on increased spending. A tighter (simpler) spec also may allow someone like a Gibson or Judd to jump in as well!

Richard

[Casper]

They are between a rock and a hard place and any decisions made in 202* will not last long as ICE's become antiques and will be intolerable by 2035. VW are hell bent on going full BEV so no way will they want to be associated with an ICE past 2030. They have announced recently that all ICE development will stop in 2026 and Audi have said that they are going full electric so no way would they be connected to an ICE series from about the mid 20's or so it would seem. Simplify what they have got and see what happens will be the only option F1 has and even that is not a good one because of the short life of the new ICE and the expense of changing in about four years time.
https://europe.autonews.com/automake...-electric-only
https://www.auto123.com/en/news/volk...es-2026/65384/

Ferrari have now joined the hybrid road car market as well simply because they have had to so that could be a problem as well while MB are giving it some deep and meaningful thought but they will have to toe the line. It is reckoned that the new emission regulations will make the ICE unviable as we know it most probably because a BEV will be much cheaper to produce.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/i...-unviable-2026

All that puts F1 somewhere between a rock and a hard place and the avalanche of change is just getting going. As for synthetic fuels for transport read this
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/why...stion-in-cars/
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/i...-viable-option
https://theicct.org/blog/staff/e-fue...l-not-save-ice

Biofuels are not going to be viable either for mass transport
https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ey-are-sold-as

F1 could use an ICE for as long as it wants but the major manufacturers will be very loathe to have anything to do with that thus they are turning to Formula E as an each way bet or simply because they can see the writing on the wall....cross out which one does not apply. Sooner or later and it will be sooner IMO they will wake up to the problem they face and actually do something to resolve it but that will have to be forced on them. Make the decision to use an ICE and be damned or go with the flow. Most fans would like the former option to happen but which ever way they go the only sure thing is F1 will change so get used to it.

[chillibowl]

Environmental concerns are big for me but maybe that comes and goes depending on the weather news. Parts of Canada dealing with some crazy hot heat waves so my concerns are at a high at the moment.

Maybe not directly related to this thread, but i wonder how much of these future engines talks include discussions about performance engines running in much higher average temps?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Environmental concerns are big for me but maybe that comes and goes depending on the weather news. Parts of Canada dealing with some crazy hot heat waves so my concerns are at a high at the moment.

Maybe not directly related to this thread, but i wonder how much of these future engines talks include discussions about performance engines running in much higher average temps?

Given the amount of jet fuel and transport fuels F1 puts into the environment, I think you are watching the wrong sport.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by wnut

Given the amount of jet fuel and transport fuels F1 puts into the environment, I think you are watching the wrong sport.

Unfair imo. Surely F1 fans and care about the environment.

Anyways, they already build engines that they try to optimize for hot weather. I can't imagine they are planning on stoping that.

[Sodemo]

They will never be able to develop battery tech to enable the cars to go “f1 speeds” by 2030. I mean Formula E cars barely reach over 120mph and they race for 1/3 of the length of an F1 race. The batteries are not going to get 300% better in 9 years, so the hybrid angle needs to stay.

[chillibowl]

Im not saying that EV is the future or what F1 should adopt, but isnt FE's lack of speed more about the tracks they race at?

Surely FE, or more specifically EVs, can do much much more then 120mph.

Completing an F1 race distance at F1ish speeds though...yeah they have super far to go.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Tomorrow (July 3rd) at the Austrian GP there will be a working group meeting to discuss the 2025 power unit. [...]

The general thinking is that they will continue with a hybrid solution like today. There is a push for a renewable fuel for the ICE component. It is likely they will drop the MGU-H due to it's complexity, but may keep a turbo solution.

Domenicalli has just revealed that the meeting reached a number of conclusions. Included in these are:

• The future PU will be very focused on hybrid - more so than the current unit(s).
• Fuel supply will be environmentally sustainable.

Full details in due course - but hybrid dependency will increase.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

They will never be able to develop battery tech to enable the cars to go “f1 speeds” by 2030. I mean Formula E cars barely reach over 120mph and they race for 1/3 of the length of an F1 race. The batteries are not going to get 300% better in 9 years, so the hybrid angle needs to stay.

And that is why they are running out of options. Use a hybrid and it will be an historic boat anchor very quickly but all electric is not a pleasant alternative to think about at this point in time. Who says that F1 needs to race at the current speeds, that is one of its main problems which no one seems to want to address. By raising speeds they are painting the category into a corner and it gets smaller year after year. NASCAR have worked it out why can't F1?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

They will never be able to develop battery tech to enable the cars to go “f1 speeds” by 2030.

That can't be right! BEV enthusiasts keep saying battery electric vehicles are the best thing since sliced bread.

305km at 1000hp with 790kg is surely just around the corner?

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Im not saying that EV is the future or what F1 should adopt, but isnt FE's lack of speed more about the tracks they race at?

Surely FE, or more specifically EVs, can do much much more then 120mph.

No. Formula E cars are about the same pace as a classic 200hp Formula Three car and slower than the modern 450hp Formula Three. They lack performance severely compared to even 600hp Formula Two let alone 1000hp Formula One.

I feel Formula E have not been aggressive enough with pushing the performance envelope, and increasing battery capacity and power output. Racing at proper circuits and having generous regeneration without the need to put chicanes everywhere should also be a part of pushing the performance envelope.

If the Formula E car needs to weigh 1500kg or 2000kg in order to accommodate a 150 kWh or 250 kWh battery that is sufficient for a 305km e-Prix, well so be it and just do it IMO. Persisting with a meagre 54 kWh battery (smaller than many road cars) seems absurd!

For reference, the 105kg of fuel on board a F1 Grand Prix car would be equivalent to a Formula E carrying:

105 * 0.5 thermal efficiency * 46.4 MJ = 2436 Megajoules
=> 676 kWh

[Obviously the Formula E can use the battery energy with close to 100% efficiency, which is very impressive! But having a battery equivalent to less than 1/10th of a F1 fuel tank is just preposterously inadequate.]

BEV enthusiasts note great rate of progress in battery chemistry. Surely a battery that contains 670 kWh and can fit within a 800kg race car will be possible by 2030?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Domenicalli has just revealed that the meeting reached a number of conclusions. Included in these are:

• The future PU will be very focused on hybrid - more so than the current unit(s).

Isn't that the exact opposite of a cost-effective power unit!? :raises eyebrow:

That is completely contradictory to goals 4 and 5:

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

4. Significant cost reduction
5. Attractiveness to new power unit manufacturers

If the current units with their impressive 50% thermal efficiency are too expensive, isn't relying even more on hybridisation to eke out even more efficiency going to make it worse...?

[GingerPixel]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

The batteries are not going to get 300% better in 9 years.

I wouldn't bet on that. What was the percentage figure attributed to battery performance development once Porsche got involved with the 919?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Isn't that the exact opposite of a cost-effective power unit!? :raises eyebrow:

That is completely contradictory to goals 4 and 5:

Yup. And allows manufacturers to dictate the future of the sport, which shouldn't be happening.

[Taxi645]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...onent/6626213/

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Yup. And allows manufacturers to dictate the future of the sport, which shouldn't be happening.

playing devils advocate a bit (but only a bit), but who should dictate the future then?

in the past i would have said unequivocally that only sporting requirements/needs should lead the way but now we are in a unique situation where the manufacturers needs actually align with society's in so much as they need to create a product (or at least an image of a product) that reflects the increasingly mainstream environmental and social goals.

arguably the manus got here well before the commercial and sporting rights holders did.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

playing devils advocate a bit (but only a bit), but who should dictate the future then?

in the past i would have said unequivocally that only sporting requirements/needs should lead the way but now we are in a unique situation where the manufacturers needs actually align with society's in so much as they need to create a product (or at least an image of a product) that reflects the increasingly mainstream environmental and social goals.

arguably the manus got here well before the commercial and sporting rights holders did.

Literally anyone but the manufacturers should lead the way.

Here's the deal in every motorsport series you could think of, be it F1, Group C, WEC, IMSA, DTM, BTCC

- Manufacturers arrive, throw money at things
- Series bow down to manufacturer demands
- Costs get out of hand
- Small teams/suppliers forced out
- Manufactures leave
- Series collapses, or needs a rebirth to live

F1 is at step 4 currently. This same pattern has happened at Le Mans 3 times since 1990, happened in BTCC for super tourers, happened in DTM twice since 1995, and F1 is going down that road, despite being largely immune to being F1. For the first time in the sports history the engines are now impossible to manufacturer by smaller suppliers and they are completely gone from the sport and cannot return. The most expensive parts of the cars are now dictated by the richest, and the smaller teams have no choice but to buy from them. Meanwhile, Toto thinks the engines are too cheap and he should be allowed to charge more for them - which tells you all you need to know about how big teams feel about the health of the sport (or how little they care).

Manufactures do need to align with society. But I fail to see why this is Formula 1s problem. This is a problem for car manufacturers, not Formula 1. So why are we bending over backwards to accommodate them? Knowing they'll chuck in the towel as soon as it doesn't suit them (see: Honda. Multiple times).

I've said it countless times, but I'll say it again. Sailing did not try and keep itself relevant to sea faring technology. Nor did horse riding, or cycling. These have no real connection to the real world applications that the sports once were linked to. So the answer for F1 is simple - stop being road car relevant.

- Mandate large petrol engines, with no hybrids
- The actual impact of a single grid of F1 cars is tiny, so focus the green efforts elsewhere (transportation, etc)
- Manufacturers will leave because it doesn't suit them
- The simpler engines opens the door for manufacturers such as Judd and Gibson
- Costs dramatically decrease
- Noise returns
- Smaller teams budgets are no longer 50% protection money for the manufacturers selling them engines

Did anyone care less about F1 when Senna vs Prost vs Mansell happened in McLarens and Williams rather than Mercedes and Red Bulls?

Or, to put it simply: If you want a sustainable sport, then you need to stop allowing companies who don't care about the sustainability of your sport to decide the direction the sport goes in - especially when they all have a history of dropping your sport when it no longer suits their ever changing agenda.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Manufactures do need to align with society. But I fail to see why this is Formula 1s problem. This is a problem for car manufacturers, not Formula 1.

if F1 wants to maintain its public platform as well as align with their sponsors requirements for suitable advertising platforms, then adhering to contemporary social norms is F1's problem.

basically the same reason F1 (sort of) accepted the smoking ban...if they want to go racing in the places they want to go racing in then they have to play the game.

of course F1 can go back to being a small niche sport and that may suit many. nothing wrong with that but the reality is that the owners of the sport want it to be bigger then that. old owners wanted that too.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Or, to put it simply: If you want a sustainable sport, then you need to stop allowing companies who don't care about the sustainability of your sport to decide the direction the sport goes in - especially when they all have a history of dropping your sport when it no longer suits their ever changing agenda.

i actually think the manus care more about sustainability then you give them credit for (it took them some time but they see where the money is at) but i agree with the sentiment though.

large manufacturers, by the virtue of their very size, are not efficient operations. if sustainability is the goal, then small, often local, operations have a greater ability to be more adaptable and efficient in both their operations and in their design philosophies.

smaller independent operations receiving better funding from the prize fund providing something truly bespoke for F1 might be a more secure path forward for f1.

[Akrapovic]

On point 1 you end with my exact point. They want to be bigger than that. But I think we have different ideas on what a "small niche sport" is, since we'd count sailing in that - and that's ridiculously huge too.

On point 2 - the manufacturers don't care even slightly about sustainability. We already saw BMW, Honda and Toyota drop it when it turned out that F1 was a little harder than they expected. And then Honda came back...and left again. They don't care even a tiny little bit.

Meanwhile, Toto thinks he should be allowed to charge teams EVEN MORE than the MOST EXPENSIVE ENGINES IN F1 HISTORY.

There is zero regard for the sustainability of the sport from any of the manufacturers involved.

btw - we're going to see Formula E join the collapse of manufacturer dominated series soon enough. With the VAG already looking at IMSA (hey, petrol cars - who'd have thought?) and Mercedes spending more than the planned budget cap on a test track (which is just a large skid pan with concrete blocks they can move about), the sustainability of Formula E, is, ironically, pretty poor as well.

You can't have sustainability and a cost centre for manufacturers. You can have sustainability if it's a cost centre for niche suppliers (Gibson, Judd, etc), and you can have sustainability if it's a profit centre for manufacturers (GT3, GT4), but you cannot have manufacturers in a spending war, dictating rules which require more spending, and sustainability.

[S griffin]

Exactly. Nothing wrong with manufacturers in any motorsport, they do add to it, but don’t rely on them. They will leave as soon as it no longer suits them to be in the series. It’s much better to listen to the teams, who are there to win and who are in the sport because they love it, rather than the manufacturers who are often there just to improve their own brand

[chillibowl]

to each their own of course and apologies if i am taking this thread in the wrong direction but...

what small teams are we talking about? the ones owned by billionaires as or the ones owned by investment/hedge funds? that cant be who we should listen to?

that said though, i am perfectly willing to do whatever Mclaren wants though!

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

to each their own of course and apologies if i am taking this thread in the wrong direction but...

what small teams are we talking about? the ones owned by billionaires as or the ones owned by investment/hedge funds? that cant be who we should listen to?

that said though, i am perfectly willing to do whatever Mclaren wants though!

Yeah those teams - the ones the were forced to sell out to billionaires (and in McLarens case, governments) in order to survive as costs were pushed ridiculously high by manufacturers who don't care about the sport Those teams indeed. Because they weren't owned by these people until things got out of hand. And why is it out of hand now? Oh, that's right.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I've said it countless times, but I'll say it again. Sailing did not try and keep itself relevant to sea faring technology. Nor did horse riding, or cycling. These have no real connection to the real world applications that the sports once were linked to. So the answer for F1 is simple - stop being road car relevant.

I agree with pretty much everything you say. I will take it a step further. And honestly this is not anything new. But F1 should also not try to be the pinnacle of motorsports technology. That ship sailed a long time ago when various things (active suspension, active, aero, etc.) was deemed illegal by the rules. Continue to pick and choose the parts of the sandbox that the teams can play in. But generally keep it simple and let the world diverge from F1.

Richard

[chillibowl]

yes they have raised costs and pushed ideas more relevant to their commercial pursuits...but its been like that for like 20plus years now. surely the ship has sailed on this now and in fairness, it has still been a pretty excellent show.

of course learn from past mistakes but also the sport is where it is and has to go forward with the hand they have now.

so honest question...going forward, would the sport be better off without the involvement, even say heavy to total influence, of Ferrari, Merc, Renault, and even Honda?

these 4 are F1 institutions mind you. they have stuck to this sport for ages and are arguably as important to the fabric of the sport as any past privateer team was!

i will try to keep an open mind on this, but i dont see how the answer could be yes.

[Casper]

So if manufacturers are to be forced out then Ferrari should be the first to go.....let's see how that idea goes.

And as an afterthought McLaren should be second out the door.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

so honest question...going forward, would the sport be better off without the involvement, even say heavy to total influence, of Ferrari, Merc, Renault, and even Honda?

these 4 are F1 institutions mind you. they have stuck to this sport for ages and are arguably as important to the fabric of the sport as any past privateer team was!

Yes. It would be better off without the massive influence they have. As it was from 1950 until around 2000 when manufacturers started deciding they needed their own teams, which gave them the ability to lobby for rule changes they wanted.

Ferrari is a slightly different one. They don't intend on leaving F1, like the rest of them do. They've never really pushed for ridiculously expensive power units that will fit well into a Toyota Prius.