Do We Need Championships?

[andy97]

Do we actually need national championships at Club level at all? Sure there will always be a few people who want to chase the pot and who want to race at different circuits around the country in order to be the "National Champion" of a club/ series that most people have never heard of (outside of the club). Equally there are probably loads of people who are happy to race at venues relatively local to them and who want to undertake more local rounds than they could national rounds. After all chasing titles and travelling around the country 15 times a year requires a huge investment in time and money (travelling costs, overnight stays, testing at "unfamiliar" circuits etc).

How about regional, or even single circuit, based multi class racing for cars conforming to Club F3, Mono and F4 spec (and a second grid probably for the smaller capacity cars eg Mono 1800/ F4 Class E, F4 Class A, Mono 1200, Mono1600). (Call it F Libre, if you like but the MSA probably wouldn't like it and I do think that it would be a slightly different concept). There could still be class winners, and tacky pots, for those that want them, and an end of season class champion. In addition, there could be an end of season Club Single Seater Festival in which all the regional runners could come together in specific class races (ie all the Club F3, all the Mono 2000 cars etc) to fight for the overall right to call themselves the Club F3 or Mono 2000 or Mono 1600 or whatever National champion.

Disadvantages:

1. Culture - people do like to spend money travelling round the country!
2. No individual championships for Club F3, Mono, F4 etc
3. Grid slots
4. Which organising clubs would take it on - vested interests.
5. Potential for poor image
6. Different performance levels between classes

Advantages:

1. Lower individual costs due to lower travelling costs and lower testing costs.
2. Large "catchment area" of potential competitors so potential for big grids.
3. End of season National series "run off" or championship festival might attract publicity (at least in MN or Autosport) for club racing.
4. Potential for regionally based publicity and, dare I say it, sponsorship for both individuals and the "series".
5. The class based structure may also mean that everyone gets the potential to "race" with sommeone else throughout the field. ie slower Club F3 drivers can still have a good scrap with quicker Mono 2000 drivers etc etc.
6. Individuals who wanted to race around the country could still take part in guest races as they and their budget allowed.

OK, it won't happen but its just a thought.

[Rod Birley]

Funnily enough we (BARC south east) made it happen with the Track and Race saloons. However, our efforts to make the same happen with single seaters have not worked. Our club chairman is open to suggestions.

[Barry Pomfret]

Part of the problem with the BARC Single Seater series and their low number of entries is related to the circuits used. Most of the rounds are at places like Silverstone Stowe circuit. I know the entries are cheap so costs have to be kept down, but if the races were on Silverstone National, and not Lydden, I'm sure it would be a lot more popular.

[Rod Birley]

We tried Mallory and Snetterton this year. Mallory ran with 10 entries, Snetterton was cancelled when only three entered. Last year we did run at Brands but it was not a very good turnout, about 14 I think. To keep the entries low we need at least 20 cars at these venues, or a bit better support at the smaller circuits (to help subsidise the races on bigger circuits). Its simple maths really, but without support it is not going to happen.

[Raltracer]

This is a really potentially interesting debate .. lots I would like to say .. but will stick right now to current events.

Like you guys I love motorsport ... different circuits .. travel and most of all, to me, honest competition .. which is what championships bring.

This weekend like Rod Birley .. I was at brands hatch .. I was a bit off the pace in mono but had great racing .. I later watched carefully the BARC road saloons race .. as my mates race in it .. and frankly I was appalled .. the sun must have got to people as the carnage due to crass driving was amazing .. as I stood at Druids with a well known photographer .. we looked at the huge difference in cars and their performance .. not just the damage .. the focus and the evo .. the orange mk1 escort ... the cruel driving by the ex toruing car merc by driving wide out of druids everytime and forcing car after a car wide on the exit.

The point for me is there are no big grids around unless you relax the rules to get them .. like running sillouettes and group N type cars .. this is not competition its a glorified track day ... real championships have rules about what you can run and how and generally they are enforced as well as driving standards that are rather more than a throwback to oval and banger racing.

These comments are my personal views and not meant to upset any one .. and my apolopgies if it does .. but I was there and the guys and families who paid to watch were just not impressed either. The 4 cars mentioned above would not be running again in many championships they would be hounded out.

Championships are more than big grids ..they provide a focus ..a target somehting to aim for .. and success can be judged on equal merits.

I studied the field because I wanted to finish single seaters and was looking to invest in anew car to compete in ... but I think I will stick with single seaters or go to porsches .. I would like a regional single seater series but properly regulated.

Best Rgds Raltracer

[Rod Birley]

Alan, you are entitled to your opinion and views, but the BARC committee will be looking into the "contact" element at their next meeting on Tuesday. It may well be a case of "hot headed" drivers having spent 40 minutes in the collecting are whilst the monos had three starts (two red flags).Then there was the presentation on the grid which nobody seemed to know anything about! At least there were no fisticuffs unlike another race on the same day. Any way the point of this thread is to discuss single seaters.

[Raltracer]

Originally Posted by Rod Birley

Alan, you are entitled to your opinion and views, but the BARC committee will be looking into the "contact" element at their next meeting on Tuesday. It may well be a case of "hot headed" drivers having spent 40 minutes in the collecting are whilst the monos had three starts (two red flags).Then there was the presentation on the grid which nobody seemed to know anything about! At least there were no fisticuffs unlike another race on the same day. Any way the point of this thread is to discuss single seaters.

Hi Rod, I do not want to knock what has been done by you and the BARC to get a large grid .. I think it is related to single seaters and any other race event .. that such huge differnces in the performance of cars do not produce good racing .. which is why I think that series for single seaters need to be well thought out to produce a race series or championship that a club racer can invest in for at least one year. A Libra type single seater series will always produce drivers that dip in and out .... BARC SE are perhaps the only organising club that can put a SE single seater 'championship' together.

Yes .... I also agree ... the 3 mono restarts and the pre race presentation while all the cars were on the grid bemused us all of us watching... including some of the mono competitors in that race/class ... it marred ... right at the end ... what was a good weekend of club racing at Brands Hatch with spectators just like it used to be (I sound old here ..I know!)

I am pleased for your series that the barc committee is looking at the driving standards. Nuff said heh


Raltracer

Dont shoot the messenger

[Rod Birley]

No problem. We need the feed back to progress forward. The single seaters will need careful thought, point taken.

[Jon Gray]

My vote is for Championships ever since I started motor racing it has always been about a championships admittedly I started in the Champion of Oulton series and we did the odd Mallory or Comb round along with the festival at the end of the year but at least they were all FF1600 and not a mix bag of cars.

Now in Club F3 and ARP before that I have supported the series each year and only missed the odd round. There will always be a group of drivers that compete to win a championship and that’s my goal, I don’t see the point in entering selected races just for a one off I have done this in the past and to me it’s pointless I did a mono race and qualified 2nd on the grid and after a terrible start dropped to the back of the pack but still finished 2nd it might look good getting back up the order but to be honest it was boring. The other race was at Anglesey in the wet where my Dallara 301 had no grip, hence I was pant’s and did not even take the start of the last race because they run it with Caterhams due to time restrictions. If it had been dry then it might have been a different story.

The good point for championships is the cars are equally matched in class and performance I have said this so many times before for example a mono has good straight line speed compared to an F3 car but when you get to a corner it’s so easy to brake later and carry more speed through the corner.

[Asp]

Despite the title of the thread, I presume andy that you're not suggesting a complete lack of any championships (which is a highly relevant discussion in itself..), but you want a move to Regional "Libre" Championships (approximately talking).

My gut instinct would be to go for it - it generally works for saloons (eg. DTRC, DDMC Northern Sports&Saloons); and in certain single seater series (FF1600) regional championships are dominant - and national championships falter.
But, the problem has been touched upon - you could have 20 cars, but if they're all in different classes it would be a very boring race. I'd rather see 10 stuck nose-to-tail throughout having a good battle.

And, it's been tried, and doesn't really work. I suppose with Single Seaters, the cars are built originally to race in a particular class, a particular series. Saloon cars are built to be driven on the M25. Therefore, it must seem more logical - you have a F Renault, you race it in BARC F Renault. Whereas, if you have a Ford Fiesta, there's no real place it "belongs".

[carsten.meurer]

interesting subject !
for some years i look around europe for places to race, and see all sorts of
races, and it seems that with very few exeptions, the racing is gone from
motor racing...

i found there are two types of people that you can get onto the grid.
1st - the racer ! he will try and get a car that allowes him to compete in the
series ( and it should be a championship ! ) that he values most for
competitiveness, to proofe his point !

2nd - the mechanic ' needed to become driver ' because he would never let
anyone else drive the car he put together with a lot of love and labour !
he loves to take it out to track to show it, but doing a competitive cchip
is not his goal !

i for one am a racer, so thats the point i can argue from...
been in single seaters forever, had a few spells in tintops, and while building
historic tins, went back to race ss !
i NEVER really enjoyed libre events ! i want to know how fast i drive
compared to very sililar cars ! yes, i will take the chance to use my chasis
as a excuse for being slow, but i want a policed rulebook that gives everyone
about the same toy !
for different sort of libre races, i would need to modify the car i have ( fford,
fvl, whatever.. ) to be competitive ! not really what i would like to do if my goal is to do fford ( class ) in a libre structure.


i always felt that tintops and theire regs had it worked out better that sililar cars can race against each other in class. if this is really the case i do not know, but it looked like it from the grandstand !

this weekend i raced in poland, and they had few cars per most grids.
in everything but one make cups, we soon started jokeing that every single car was in its own class ! and we were close...

in my view single seaters and tintops need a different approach.
similar for both is that you will find a hardcore racer fraction that is willing to travel to do a cchip that is competitive, while the other part wants to take
theire machines out on the track day disguised as racing.

maybe the choice of two serious cchips for ss and tc each, one on each end of the scale ( maybe ff1600 and club f3 for ss and near standart hot hatch and modifieds for tc ) will draw good racing grids, and all the rest can enjoy
formula libre track days !?

[Bob Pearson]

Tricky one this, I can't imagine motor racing without championships. What I am not sure of is why I can't, as the most enjoyable days of my racing was in motor cycle racing when there were no championships, just classes dictated by engine size and you selected the meetings you wanted to attend.
The same could be done for cars, single seaters up to 2 litre and another class for unlimited engine size. The same options for saloons and sports cars. But would it work? I simply can't imagine it.

[Larry J-Croft]

Oops - must change the picture as the TOMs is now in France. Unfortunately due to personal/family issues the single seater had to go. Depending on circumstances I may be back in a year or two. However in the meantime I am keeping my hand in with a couple of 'series'. The first is the Classic Sports Car CLub tin tops, Dermot kindly let me share a a 1300 Fiat Uno in a race at Oulton last weekend - two drivers 40 minutes, £ 275 (ie £137.50 entry fee each). Bloody good fun (even if the new brake pads only worked after 6 laps!!) and we even got a pot for first in class. Importantly the rules are 'up to 2 litre hatches and saloons running on List 1a/b tyres in 3 capacity classes' - thats it - the whole set of regulations - not the normal long list of restrictions/rules/closed stable doors (obviously Blue book safety ruels still apply).
I am also hoping to share a TR7V8 with a mate next year in the Heritage GT series, again 40 mins 2 drivers plus another 20 min race for a total of £500 - televised with 6 free hospitality places for the whole weekend, and they go around with the BTCC or National F3 lot. I got to know about it by seeing a Snetterton race on Sky Sport the other night - rules '60s and 70s sports cars running on moulded road tyres in various capacity classes' once again that is it!!

The point of this dit?? I fully suport Andy - why not single seaters? - stuff the Championships, get some good tracks and keep the rules to a single line and see what happens. Cater for people who want a laugh and a race ( and keep it cheap) -- it can be done.

[andy97]

Personally I would advocate a national Club F3 championships and regional Libre series for up to 2 litre cars with an annual festival to find the national Mono 2000 or national F4 champion etc as outlined in my original post but it won't happen. I even suggested that Mono introduce a couple of regional Cups this year to give competitors that only raced sporadically and regionally (and were not in contention for the main trophy) something to race for but there was no interest.

I guess that one of the "problems" with regional single seater racing is that, compared to saloon/ sports cars, there are fewer about and therefore not enough to have a regional series for cars of the same regulation (Except F Ford 1600). As a result, Series with a national flavour are more prevalent. Multi-class racing appears to be much less popular in SS, whereas in saloons it is often the norm.

I think that SS are also perceived to be more complex and expensive to run than a saloon/ sports car (albeit that the opposite is probably true) and therefore less popular overall. As an example I chatted to some Caterham Academy guys at Stowe two years ago and they were gobsmacked that my Vauxhall Junior cost just £5000 to buy and £400 per race all in - they genuinely thought that they were in the cheapest form of motosport going but that's marketing for you! One of them sold his Caterham and bought a F Ford Zetec!! Perhaps the SS club racing world should raise its profile somewhat to attract more competitors and then regional racing might come.

The BARC-SEC SS series is good value but a lot of people don't like Stowe, whilst races at Brands and Mallory were competing for entrants with series like Mono or F4 that were often on the same weekend elsewhere. I am certainly hoping to continue to do the Stowe races in the future but 2 have been cancelled this year for perfectly good reasons.

I still think that there are enough cars around to Mono 2000/ F4/ F Renault or Mono 1800/ F Ford Zetec/ F Ford 2000 or Mono 1200/ F Jedi spec to make regional series work, probably with 3 grids as defined above, but it will never happen because Mono and the 750MC would probably need to be the organisers (unless the BRSCC, the BARC or MSV decided to go their own way) and they are not going to give up their national championships whilst their own members are supporting them. And why should they, whilst the current system survives I guess that there is no need to change it? I guess that I am unusual in only wanting to race regionally so I either buy a F Ford 1600 or look for a suitable regional Saloon/ sports car championship.

[ss_collins]

how have I only just found this thread - great stuff.

Certainly national single seater racing needs to be rationalised. I think that there should be a few national series - Vee for example is a happy little world. (though entries for silverstone are a little down this year - only 47).

However I think the majority needs sorting out - how many people really chase championships? or are people more interested in special events, Phoenix Park, WHT, CC Festival etc..

What I see is a premier championship - based on club F3 but with more Libre rules, and that should have British amatuer championship status. Meanwhile some of the mixed up stuff - mono, F4 etc.. should be replaced with some kind of universal points stucture, rather like the sprint leaders so instead of having a rather confusing mix of championship you have a series of one off races (which if organised correctly would for example be the Sevenoaks Trophy - awarded for a brands hatch open single seater race) so it would certainly result in a reduction of races run for these cars but it would allow the clubs to get bigger grids and drivers to pick and choose. At the end of the season there should be a challenge event so the top points scorers all gather at a track to have a race to decide the champion - perhaps that should be a handicap by class race.

This system may also work for Saloons.