Europe In, Denver Out?

[indycool]

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...TS01/701150423


http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_5020433

[Last2LiftOff]

I hope I'm wrong and I usually am, but IMO Champcar trying to steal a piece of the market in Europe right now is quasi suicidal. It's too dang crowded and when you're walking with a limp, you'd better circle the wagons and concentrate on your strengths i.e. North America. I can't see them improving their situation here by picking another fight over there.

I think they'd best be ready to bug-out on short notice.

[luke]

Pick a fight? Steal some market? I don't quite think the situation is that! Europe is a very populated motor sport continent, great for us, but not great for over seas series trying to make some success.
The thing is, it could work as long as the events are good and its not a one off, it is a series of races each year, that way its established and more success.

[Last2LiftOff]

Possibly Luke. Europe is an absolutely great market for motorsports, no question, and I certainly didn't mean to imply otherwise.

Again, I hope I'm wrong.

[JohnSSC]

Last2LiftOff, you make a good point. There is no doubting that Europe is an outstanding area as far as motorsports awareness. The question here is this: "Is there room for yet another series in Europe?" I am not sure that with the abundance of open wheel delights, from FF to F1 that CC is going to add or gain anything by going there.

Not so long ago, KK was projecting CC as a series based in North America with a strong concentration in the Pacific Rim as that was where the opportunities were. The Asian market is growing and therefore so would the opportunities for sponsorship. In the meantime you still have a North American base that is almost non-existent and from that base you are now turning toward Europe.

I understand you have to go where the opportunities are, but I could see more of them in the Pacific Rim than Europe. More importantly I thought it would be good to develop the "American" base, including S America. Now off we go to Europe.

No offense, but the CC organization either needs Ritalin or otherwise someone to step up, set a direction and go with it instead of doing an imitation of a windsock.

[paul-collins]

A story about Speed World Challenge:

Two years ago ALMS and Speed WC were to run concurrent schedules for the full year. This was announced in the fall of 2004. ALMS had scheduled Road America and Mosport back to back weekends, and then SWC decided that they'd join Champcar at Denver - meaning back-to-back-to-back weekends.

SWC decided, at the same time, to drop Mosport, which infuriated ALMS organizers privately; the public response was to negotiate with their own series participants and SWC to move the Mosport weekend back a week, to Labour Day. (I was unhappy that the race was moved to a long weekend, and am happy now that Mosport has moved off it)

Anyway, SWC committed to joining ALMS at Mosport, but then turned around and dropped Road America, citing "paddock space concerns." How does a racing series choose Denver street racing over Road America (or for that matter, Mosport)? I dunno, but at any rate it confirmed to the ALMS that Steve Johnson (yes, the now president of Champcar) was not one to be trusted.

Strange things, I tell ya. Johnson and Bruggenthies of Road America twisted the ALMS to force them to share a date with Champcar this year. Now Denver appears dead, and Speed World Challenge has a 7 to 9 race schedule that includes a run with NASCAR at Charlotte. Chicanes?

I always felt that Denver's circuit was not bad, as street circuits go, but clearly the loss of Centrix has hurt them. In some ways it's like Toronto losing Molson. Street races cost a ton to get set up, so they need much higher fan ticket / VIP sales to break even than a permanent facility needs. I have to wonder if, beyond the significant street parties at Toronto and Long Beach, the logic of city racing has run its course...

[Snrub]

It's a shame if Denver is gone. How many times was Denver used an example of how to make something work from a sponsorship and building fan support perspective?

I don't get the Europe thing from a long term strategic standpoint. JohnSSC makes reference to KK talking up Pacific expansion. I think KK was voicing a strategy that at the time he thought they could acheive. I suspect that with no race in Korea, Japan or China that strategy died. I suspect that the European races have more to do with specific financial incentives. Perhaps Stoddart's contacts (eg. Muermans) want specific things to occur and CC is willing to help out to build teams. There may be money paying for events and perhaps making them profitable.

[Bluewolf]

A great idea IMO!!! There are very few American drivers to start with in CC so Champ Car should be looking to have less races in the states and more races around the globe as many fans root for drivers from their respective countries -- whats the point of having an U.S. based series when there are few if any drivers from the states -- Champ car owners hire the best drivers they can find and that means drivers from around the world -- which in turn makes it obvious that their race venues should also be international in nature -- doing so, I believe will result in greater interest internationally and a greater worldwide TV audience -- I hope this is just the start for this series that needs to become truly international in scope.

[luke]

Exactly, It should come to no surprise to people. KK has always had Europe on one of his number 1 priorities, so rich in motor sport. When they couldn't do Europe in 2004, they never intended on leaving it, just until the series has been rebuilt to be making money again which is what is happening right now. Along with the new car, drivers, events. What you are seeing now is the OWRS CCWS that was dreamed of by the leaders, and leaving the old CART roots behind which has what has been happening over the years even before CART ended to an extent.
Champ Car has pretty much no relevance to the U.S. now, just look at the new rules which are much more FIA standard. You really shouldn't be surprised about this and less U.S. races and saying CC has no direction. CC having no direction would be being based strongly in the U.S.
The IRL also recognizes this, hence it broke its rule of an all American series.
CC in 2007 is in Europe and Asia, just what it wanted to, that's no losing direction John, that's finally seeking the direction!

[Kieran20]

i cant see how champ car can even be thought to be an american series any more. first as its called the champ car world series, they also now have no ovas which are a big part of american based series.

champ car has been turning towards going to europe for a while, its been to brands hatch before as well. dont see why they cant come again and get some more fans over here.

[luke]

SOME (not whole article) quotes from Autosport: (Good news)

"It took a while to finalise," commented Champ Car President Steve Johnson, "but it was important to us all to persist. We have about five times the number of European drivers as we do US drivers in our series, and so we have a great number of fans in Europe.

"At some venues, it takes a while to build up a strong fanbase but I'm confident that these races at Assen and Zolder will be huge successes right from their inaugural events."

He said: "Tony Cotman [Champ Car VP of Operations] has just returned from Zolder and he's confident the work can be done within the required time frame."

"We are excited to bring the American equivalent of Formula One racing to Europe ," said Rietbergen.

"Champ Car provides close racing that is easy for European fans to understand, and they will be very impressed with the access that they will have in the Champ Car paddock."

Johnson stated that Champ Car's deal with Assen and Zolder was a multi-year agreement but that he would "rather not go into the details of the length of the deals."

However, he did add that the length of the agreements would not preclude the possibility of other European tracks joining the Champ Car calendar, including the long-rumoured Greek event held at an old airport in Athens, and possibly an event in France too.

Johnson said: "We are launching six new venues in one year [Las Vegas streets, Zhuhai, St Jovite and Phoenix streets are the others] which has never been done before in Champ Car or before that, CART, history.

"But thanks to the huge influx of European drivers and European sponsors, there is the chance for more races in Europe as soon as 2008. We want to do what's best by our series, our fans and our sponsors."

Great news that this this is a multi year agreement and also ran by the same promoter. Therefore I expect the two races to be promoted well and hopefully a success from the start of annual outings with in the future years more venues to add to the growing structure.

From that you can see this was always part of the direction and above all a perminant one. And not a lets steal the market and see if it works one time round which is what you are basically saying.

Champ car could have great success in Europe, IF done right. Lausitz 2003, nearly 80,000 fans at the oval. Brands Hatch not bad with 40,000ish considering F1 had arpund 80,000.
If they are annual events which is what it seems and promoted well it should all be alot better.
Champ Car has so much to offer to the fans. I CAN see it being a hit.

Also as to Denver being dead here's the deal:

Johnson said: "We haven't made any official decision to pull that race. We're evaluating the situation."

[luke]

Originally Posted by Kieran20

i cant see how champ car can even be thought to be an american series any more. first as its called the champ car world series, they also now have no ovas which are a big part of american based series.

champ car has been turning towards going to europe for a while, its been to brands hatch before as well. dont see why they cant come again and get some more fans over here.

Kieran back in the CART days and when Champ Car was called Indy Car, it used to be the Indy Car world series.

Also they call the MLB the World Baseball series which is obviously not a world series!

Its like calling the English football championship the Football World Series.

[Kieran20]

Originally Posted by luke

Kieran back in the CART days and when Champ Car was called Indy Car, it used to be the Indy Car world series.

Also they call the MLB the World Baseball series which is obviously not a world series!

Its like calling the English football championship the Football World Series.

spose so, but stupid to call it that would you not agree

[Snrub]

A "huge influx of European sponsors?" I will be surprised if we see that.

I think CC will find that it's not easy to get into the European market.
1. Why would it be much easier than the North American market?
2. Why have they failed in the past and what is different this time?
3. There are a lot of very successful series already in Europe, they're not going to take CC's moves lightly. Look at how Nascar takes threats from CC (eg. Phoenix), yet their Busch feeder series is probably bigger than all other forms of US motorsports combined! F1, GP2, Superfund, LMS, FIA GT, DTM, MotoGP, etc, etc. are not going to be any more receptive to CC's play for some of their audience and they have much more to fear than Nascar does.

Another issue was that it was very expensive for CC teams to ship all of their equipment to Europe. The whole point of the new chasis was to reduce costs. A bunch of overseas races may raise the team costs. Hopefully the series is getting compensated for the shipping expenses.

[icemachine]

I think its likely a good money trail is taking them to Europe, they wouldn't be going there if it was all being financed out of KK's pocket.

[JohnSSC]

Well, I will take issue with this whole notion of CC owners "hiring the best drivers they can find..." when in actuality CC has been the beneficiary of a number of well-funded drivers who are not from America. The team owners are not "hiring" drivers. They are entering into agreements with said drivers who, in exchange for the funds they bring, are able to occupy the seat.

One does not have to go far on these boards to read the laments posted by fans of talented Canadian and US drivers who were not nearly as well funded as the driver from elsewhere who got the ride.

A further point: They call themselves "ChampCar" to take advantage of the heritage of open wheel racing In America - not Europe or the Pacific Rim - the implication being that this is a series that is a continuation of the USAC "Champ Car" tradition. If KK and GF want to go play somewhere else that is fine. Just drop the charade then that this series has anything to do with American open wheel racing and if you want to move it, then re-name it and move it. I am sure all of Europe will be clamoring for the opportunity to see Nelson Phillipe ply his trade instead of watching Bruno Senna in GP2.

As an aside Luke, you might want to do some research on the internet (I admit to being too tired and too lazy) on the use of the names "Champ Car" and "Indy Car" as at times there have been copyrights and such involved that prevented what was USAC and then CART and then CC/IRL from using "Indy Car" or "Champ Car." At various times the usage was neither about marketing nor orientatation.

[D.R.T.]

If Jos Verstappen remains in contention for a Minardi ride, then selling out Assen shant be much of a concern.

[indycool]

John, I have that information "at hand."

The term "Champ Car" was born of the official term "National Driving Championship," set by AAA in the early 1900s. As time evolved, they were also called "Big Cars" and "Indy cars" and the series REPRESENTING the National Driving Championship evolved into names like "USAC Championship Trail" and "Marlboro Championship Trail" and "Citicorp Cup Series."

When those later names evolved and the front-engine dirt cars were included in the championship, then named Silver Crown and out of the championship, people still called those front-engine cars "Championship Dirt Cars" and shortened it to "Champ Cars." Indeed, some, to this day, call USAC Silver Crown cars "Champ Cars."

When CART was born in 1979, CART called the cars officially "Indy cars." Shortly thereafter, when PPG joined as series sponsor, it became the "PPG Indy Car World Series."

When the split occurred, a lawsuit was filed and both sides agreed not to use the terms Champ Car or Indy car for a specified period of time to settle the suit. When that time expired, CART chose Champ Car and the IRL chose Indy car and that's where it's at today.

[Last2LiftOff]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

A story about Speed World Challenge:

.......I dunno, but at any rate it confirmed to the ALMS that Steve Johnson (yes, the now president of Champcar) was not one to be trusted........

......the logic of city racing has run its course...

Paul, I've just reread your post, for like the third time now and excuse me but I'm still not sure what point(s) you're making in the context of this thread. The two excerpts above?

Not unusual Paul, people have to explain things to me alot

[coyote9999]

John SSC

The same can be said of almost any series except maybe Formula One. IRL certainly has the same challenges as CC. There seems to be however a deeper field in talent every year in both series however...

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by Last2LiftOff

Paul, I've just reread your post, for like the third time now and excuse me but I'm still not sure what point(s) you're making in the context of this thread. The two excerpts above?

Not unusual Paul, people have to explain things to me alot

I admit it was a meandering, off topic post. Mostly it was an expression of angst against street racing in general and Denver in particular. I've long held that street racing is at best neutral in maintaining the presence of (non-oval) racing in the public's consciousness, and at worst it bleeds purpose-built facilities dry of their fan base and - ultimately - their raison d'etre.

(Also it was an opportunity to take a jab at Speed World Challenge management, which was probably unfair, but what the hey )

Case in point: CART set up the race in Toronto at about the same time that F1 left Mosport. While Mosport survived with Can Am II for some time, it slowly lost its cachet with the market while the Toronto CART race was ascendent. That, coupled with poor management, very nearly killed the track.

The problem now is that Toronto is nowhere near what it was, as an event, and Mosport is having to rebuilt its reputation. On top of that, if you lose a purpose built facility, you lose your training ground for talent.

Mid Ohio used to be an extremely well-attended event for CART, but the creation of Cleveland as an event, in my mind, harmed the CART race irreparably. Fortunately the Trueman family has done a very good job of keeping a diverse calendar, and are continuing to invest in the facility.

My desire is to see North American OW racing patronize all proper purpose-built racing venues, and draw their crowds to these facilities. Only once all of those have been accounted for should they consider going to the streets. (I mean, really, San Jose instead of Laguna Seca?)

As I said, my post was at best tangential to the topic, at worst completely off-topic. Carry on.

[Purist]

Now, however, I believe all the dates at Laguna that CART could have taken are filled (it didn't help either that in the last couple years, CART moved Laguna's date around). SoCal has no major permanent road courses since the demise of Riverside (what caused that anyway?). Except for in Georgia and Florida, all the permanent road courses in the South and Southeast are, at best, glorified club circuits (Barber is a good club and bike circuit).

VIR, Pacific Raceway, and Lime Rock are "not up to standard". Cleveland has been going well while Mid-Ohio was not, so which one did you think would be kept? Sears Point is out as long as CART is at San Jose, and IRL is now at Sears Point and Mid-Ohio.

Watkins Glen is under ISC, so it's unlikely. Toronto is already in place, so Mosport is not on the cards. The new track out west in Canada (Calabogie I think) is, by all indications, a club circuit. We do have St. Jovite though.

Miller Motorsports Park could be alright, but a deal would have to be struck ,and then the fanbase built (not to mention CART has its hands full with six new venues this year as it is). Miller, however, also is designed more like a club circuit, so I don't know how much the CART machinery could stretch its legs there (besides on the start/finish straight).

We have the best road course in Mexico already. Virtually all the other circuits in Central America are "not up to standard". F1 is at Interlagos, so that's out. Jacarepagua is out of the question until after the Pan-American Games. And Buenos Aires is probably not up to snuff. Maybe Brasilia would work, but that's about it down there.

I guess Paul Collins, I'm trying to figure out what other permanent road course CART could realistically go to, and I think it's a pretty short list. Sebring might be acceptable to them. Road Atlanta is considered too dangerous in its current form. Miller Motorsports Park as I mentioned could be an option. Maybe Brainerd, but it's rather out of the way from what many have said. Thunderbolt Raceway would be a possibility once it's operational. The samecan be said of Dragonsridge Raceway. Recently I've heard of a 3.75-mile road course to go in near Kansas City in Missouri, and a proposed 6.25-mile road course in Colorado. Obviously though, it will be a few years at least until those are up and running. Finallly, of course, there's Fundidora Park and Brasilia south of the border. Honestly, however, given how tight Findidora is, I'm not a great fan of it (it's slower/tighter than a number of the street circuits CART uses).

So, what recommendations do you have? Without resorting to club circuits (most of which aren't prepared for a large spectator event or cars of this sort of performance) or rovals, I've covered about everything I can think of.

[racerkeke]

Luke, the only problem with your argument about baseball's World Series is that the name does not refer to a global series, but rather was named after a newspaper in New York that was the original sponsor of the championship.

Just my two cents plus GST.
keke

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by Purist

Now, however, I believe all the dates at Laguna that CART could have taken are filled (it didn't help either that in the last couple years, CART moved Laguna's date around).

Cleveland has been going well while Mid-Ohio was not, so which one did you think would be kept? Sears Point is out as long as CART is at San Jose, and IRL is now at Sears Point and Mid-Ohio.

Toronto is already in place, so Mosport is not on the cards. The new track out west in Canada (Calabogie I think) is, by all indications, a club circuit. We do have St. Jovite though.

Calabogie is near Ottawa; I think you're thinking of Active Mountain Raceway. Don't bet on it actually opening.

I've taken the liberty of cutting down on your post to address the existing tracks where racing could be already, but are impinged upon by nearby street races.

1. San Jose / Sears Point / Laguna Seca: Laguna Seca was screwed over by CART by moving the race from the end of season to early in the season, and then moving the date around to ensure that no one would have any sense of when the race would be. It's my opinion that continuity is very important for the local fan base, otherwise they don't get the sense of occasion that must be a part of the event. Moving a couple of weeks is one thing, but they changed seasons. No wonder Laguna Seca, given the opportunity, filled up their calendar with others, and were in no hurry to help out Champcar when they threatened to run San Jose instead.

2. Mosport / Toronto: For this you need to know your Mosport history. USAC Indycars ran at Mosport in the early '70s, along with Formula 1. Bernie Ecclestone was pushing Mosport to upgrade facilities, and management refused (and may or may not have been able to afford them, who knows - they were penny wise and pound foolish back then), so both Montreal and Toronto thought they were in a position to lure the race away from Mosport. Organizing committees were formed in both cities, and when Toronto lost the Formula 1 bid, they turned around and used their proposal to woo USAC. This, coupled with USAC/CART becoming the inheritor of the best Can Am part 2 teams (Newman, Haas, Holbert, Hogan, Cicale), really bled Mosport dry. IMSA tried to run at Mosport but found it to be too run down in the early 80's - but if USAC/CART had've been running at Mosport, maybe - just maybe - it would have been ok. On the other hand, maybe it would have required Don Panoz' vision to revive it anyway...

3. Cleveland/Mid Ohio: Cleveland has come close to closing numerous times despite reportedly high attendance - and has changed promoters to series ownership, and now is promoted by Mike Flanagan of Mi Jack, which in my mind is arms-length series ownership. Again, I have to wonder just how much the Trueman family wanted champcar back if the promotional impact was being diluted by the Cleveland event, particularly as they've been successful in focusing on sportscars and club racing.

But (again, my opinion) it would still be better for MO, and for racing in general, to get the exposure generated by the champcar event - it would encourage fans to go to their local venue, it would encourage racers to find venues to learn and race. As it is, the road racers are imported partly because their training grounds are the same as their big time racing venues: permanent road courses.

Permanent road courses seem to be on an upswing in North America right now, but they are not being built for high level open-wheeled cars. The market has shifted to club and car club days, from development-to-pro mixed weekends. And why would they build a pro-level circuit these days, when the only pro series that seem to show any interest at all are ALMS and Grand Am?

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by Purist

Except for in Georgia and Florida, all the permanent road courses in the South and Southeast are, at best, glorified club circuits (Barber is a good club and bike circuit).

VIR, Pacific Raceway, and Lime Rock are "not up to standard".

Watkins Glen is under ISC, so it's unlikely. ... We do have St. Jovite though.

Miller Motorsports Park could be alright, but a deal would have to be struck ,and then the fanbase built (not to mention CART has its hands full with six new venues this year as it is). Miller, however, also is designed more like a club circuit, so I don't know how much the CART machinery could stretch its legs there (besides on the start/finish straight).

We have the best road course in Mexico already. Virtually all the other circuits in Central America are "not up to standard". F1 is at Interlagos, so that's out. Jacarepagua is out of the question until after the Pan-American Games. And Buenos Aires is probably not up to snuff. Maybe Brasilia would work, but that's about it down there.

Maybe Brainerd, but it's rather out of the way from what many have said. Thunderbolt Raceway would be a possibility once it's operational. The samecan be said of Dragonsridge Raceway.

Now I'm going to respond to your future circuits conundrum.

Barber is really a motorcycle circuit. I don't think it properly handles high horsepower cars, with or without fenders. Miller was designed by the same guy who did Barber (Alan Wilson) so it shares some of the tightness; however, there would easily be a proper high speed track for Champcar somewhere in the multiple configurations.

I think it's strange that people would consider tracks like Buenos Aires or VIR not up to standard but would consider le Circuit Mont Tremblant to be ok. There doesn't seem to me to be much difference in safety or access, IMO. Lime Rock is pretty bumpy and I'd agree it's probably questionable (heck, I worry about ALMS there every year); Sebring would break the cars if they did the full circuit, IMO - but it would be glorious to see them scream down into Sunset Bend...

Brainerd is nowhere near ready for anything beyond club racing, and anyway it's a poor substitute for Road America, which is pretty close geographically.