[Rules] Bin lids bin lids bin lids ... OUT OUT OUT!

[duke_toaster]

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...08094902.shtml

Bin lids! OUT!
Bin lids! OUT!
Bin lids, bin lids, bin lids! OUT OUT OUT!

/me calms down ...

Auto Motor und Sport are reporting that the teams have agreed to get rid of those infernal dustbin lids ... let's hope it actually happens. Might help overtaking, although I would agree with Sam Michael that it isn't a silver bullet.

[M30TGV]

That's good news. They do seem to add to the aero issues with regard to passing. And of course the well documented safey issues. With them gone and refuelling gone, the pit stops next year will be a lot simpler.

But quite apart from that - they look bloody awful. Every time I see them, I think of the dodgy bodywork fitted to "cars of the future" in sci-fi movies.

[Sodemo]

I can't think the wheel suppliers liked them much either. If I were Oz or BBS I would have been looking at the small print of their contracts very carefully.

I can't think they will "help" overtaking much at all. If anything, the only thing they were designed to do would be to reduce drag by a small amount, I don't think for a second that their removal will help the "racing" at all.

[M30TGV]

"Williams' technical chief Sam Michael said in July that studies have shown that the covers have "quite an adverse effect on the following car".

For now, until anyone here has done a more in depth investigation, I'm gonna go with Sam on this one...

[duke_toaster]

Don't they create large amounts of turbulence?

I think the best way of stopping these things would be to tweak the rules to ban a lot of this sillyness. One way of phrasing the rules could be as follows

• Save for the specifically authorized front wing, rear wing and rear diffuser no part of the car may be used as an aerodynamic device.
• A part will be considered an aerodynamic device it is used to generate downforce, direct air to or away from any aerodynamic device, cause deliberate or reckless disruption to the airflow of following cars. This is non-exhaustive.

The first clause would eliminate the DDDs as they use the crash structure. The second would stop any intentional aero-sabotage device.

[M30TGV]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Don't they create large amounts of turbulence?

There will be some obviously, but compared to a wheel... A rotating wheel is a hideously poor aerodynamic thing - it actually creates lift and a load of drag anyway. But hey - we can't ban wheels!

I agree with the ideas you're going with on other aero things. I'm quite new here, and I guess there will be an aero post someplace, but I have a load of ideas (based on experience) that I'd like to implement to liven things up, while still retaining F1's status at the top of the tree.

[DanShenise]

Anyone wanna bet they are cheering at Renault now?

[Super Hans]

Best news I've heard all day.

Awful looking things.

[JHamilton]

Good. One less thing to come flying off a car.

[awrb]

Thank God, we can finally see all of the car, and see the wheels and brake disks working in the slow-mo's. Now we just need to stop Renault and Red Bull putting the big flap on the back of the engine covers and the cars will look good again!

[Malfunction Junction]

Originally Posted by M30TGV

"Williams' technical chief Sam Michael said in July that studies have shown that the covers have "quite an adverse effect on the following car".

For now, until anyone here has done a more in depth investigation, I'm gonna go with Sam on this one...

This will be to do with the manner in which the covers direct outflowing air from the wheel through a small aperture, which has the effect of concentrating the airflow into a stream that has distinctly different characteristics from the surrounding air.

Don't they create large amounts of turbulence?

As pointed out by M30TGV, they reduce airflow disruption on the outer surface of the wheel dramatically, as do the brake ducts on the inside.

The issue Sam Michael refers to is that in reducing the overall drag outside AND inside the wheel, they produce an effect that produces a significantly negative result downstream, ie for the following car.

The overall result of removing them should be that a following car might be able to get a tenth closer. Doesn't sound like much but may allow effective slipstreaming on a straight 80-100 metres shorter than at the moment. Again, doesn't sound like much but if you change it too much you've got something very different.

BTW - I don't mind the fins on the spine of the red bull/renault, reminds me of the teapot intakes of the early/mid 70's....

[M30TGV]

They also work by channeling the flow between the upper and lower vortices that you get from a rotating wheel and (to an extent) stabilising those.

Also - remember before they were introduced, you'd often see brake dust being thrown quite a distance out from each front wheel? Well, that shows that the flow from the brake exit (bearing in mind the heat being produced) was directed out - perpendicular to the free stream and direction of travel. This also produces drag. What the bin-lids did was direct this flow from the brake exits and wheels (which is always there, even when the brake dust wasn't highlighting it) more rearwards, hence reducing drag. Of course, you can still see the brake dust going out sideways, but it's less than before and crucially - further from the car by the time it's diffused away.

What I was getting at was that obviously Sam and others at Williams have conducted an in depth investigation in the effects of this to a following car - and I, for one, would like to see the results... except it's all academic now, as they've gone from next year.

Now - we can see brake glow again. I always liked that.

[Bononi]

There's nothing new that we like... the old way is always better.

Back to 70s !

[zac510]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I can't think the wheel suppliers liked them much either. If I were Oz or BBS I would have been looking at the small print of their contracts very carefully.

I can't think they will "help" overtaking much at all. If anything, the only thing they were designed to do would be to reduce drag by a small amount, I don't think for a second that their removal will help the "racing" at all.

I think they would like it. Where teams have stuck the manufacturer's sticker on the wheel cover you can actually read it in a photo! Not to mention all the pitlane photos of the things. We've never paid this much attention to a wheel in the past!

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Bononi

There's nothing new that we like... the old way is always better.

Back to 70s !

F1 wheels were a lot better back then...and sometimes they had more than four!

So no 'wheel covers' then! Little by little.......

[JeremySmith]

If they could just build a F1 car that looks like my avatar, I would be more than happy!

[Alex Hodgkinson]

I quite liked them, reminded me of the covered rear wheels of the GrC cars of the 80's. I won't particularly miss them though. Ta ta!

[crmalcolm]

I personally will miss the wheel covers.
When they first appeared, I thought that it was a refreshing take on an aero feature.

[Adam43]

These were a crime against humanity. Oh, sorry, wrong thread.

Anyway, interesting pieces of kit, but I'll get over the loss of them.

[Sodemo]

They should have been banned when they were first introduced.

[Dead-Eye]

In principle, I didn't mind them - F1 used to be about innovative solutions, and this was one. For safety reasons, I don't mind banning them though, and if it helps overtaking that's good too.

[Marbot]

Yes,I'm glad to see the back of'em,but if it were ever discovered that sticking a minature figurine of Max Mosley on the nose cone of an F1 car made it go a tenth of a second a lap faster,then don't be surprised to see them putting in an appearance.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Alex Hodgkinson

I quite liked them, reminded me of the covered rear wheels of the GrC cars of the 80's. I won't particularly miss them though. Ta ta!

Some Porsche 956s and 962s had similar devices, particularly on the front wheels.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

In principle, I didn't mind them - F1 used to be about innovative solutions, and this was one. For safety reasons, I don't mind banning them though, and if it helps overtaking that's good too.

They were innovative on the '92 Ferrari.

[Lotusonpole]

I don't mind them but also am quite happy to see them go.

But if they offer enough aero benefit, what is to stop the wheel manufacturers developing a wheel with a much more flush outer face to compensate them being banned next year?