Moss, Stirling (Sir)

[marcus]

Hi people.
I am a regular visitor to a trivia site which has a real time chat applet and voice communications as well for readers to ask questions , its fun but not motorsport based which can broaden your horizons

anyway I was there the other day and the question came up who won the 1950 world drivers championship , and no one knew ...well of course i jumped all over it with Giuseppe farina and won the points but as the room is mainly UK based I was very surprised at how many people said Stirling Moss.
Of course i corrected them by saying that Mr . Moss , great as he was never actually won a world drivers championship , and everyone was aghast at this , seems to me that the general public hold him such high asteem that they have credited him with at least 2 championships.

but that aside , I thought i would post a topic and get peoples thoughts on Stirling and his awesome career and why he was held in such high asteem and still is I might add

sadly I havent seen alot of footage of him driving , but what I have seen was pretty good but was impresses me most about him is his character , he seems a real gentlemen , very well spoken and very intelligent and knows what he is talking about on whatever it maybe he is talking about.
I enjoy listening to him talk about the old days of racing against the likes of Fangio and the way he just describes what was happening left me wanting more and i could listen to him all day , it really is a shame that i havent seen more of his career on film at all and that he never won a title is a shame.

but yet why did this man who never won a title held in such high regard in especially in England???

I dont know and thought maybe someone who perhaps is in England ( or possibly even not) and knows more about this great mans career could elaborate a bit more, or even if you a great story or memory about Stirling you could post it here and share with us all what it is about him that everybody adores .

Cheers
Marcus

[paulzinho]

He couldn't have come much closer to winning the WDC without actually winning it! He was runner-up 4 times in a row if I'm not mistaken!

[Rob29]

He was Britain's greatest driver of the 50s,and the first one to become a household name.He won the main,F2 event at the first meeting I ever attended,Crystal Palace,Sep 19,1953. Around 50,000 people were known to turn up for what by todays standards would be a club event.I did not even know that Fangio was world champion until nearly 2 yrs later.

[TimD]

Ah, without doubt my favourite of them all. But why? I'm 34, and his career ended five years before I was even born.

Because Stirling, throughout his career, has backed up his extraordinary driving talent with an exemplary appreciation of who ultimately pays his wages - the racegoing public. From the earliest days in the 500cc Formula 3 cars, he would wave acknowledgement to the crowds, who would of course wave back. He would self-deprecatingly suggest that this was in order to raise his attendance money, by making race organisers think he was more popular than the next guy, but I think it was more heartfelt than that.

If he earned money by endorsing products in the fifties, he seemed to endorse the right ones to further ally himself with his fan base. I've got a Dinky Toys collectors club card passed on by a relative, which is in the form of an oldstyle car logbook, and countersigned by "Stirling Moss, Membership number 1". Guess how many miniature Stirling Mosses raced their Vanwalls and Mercedes round the carpets of fifties England...!

He had a sense of fair play. He backed up Mike Hawthorn at the Reims race of 1958 when Mike shot down an escape road and came back the wrong way. A protest and a disqualification would have been perfectly within Stirling's rights, but instead he sided with Mike. I think I'm right in saying the points that Mike saved that day beat Stirling to the '58 championship.

When Stirling was reported to the police for poor lane discipline in the Mersey Tunnel, Motor Sport magazine published the name and address of the citizen who "shopped" the brightest star of British motor racing. By 1960, this was the level of adoration for him.

And all these years later, he still has time for the fans. I can testify to this, as I know I've related in this place before. I once encountered him in the Silverstone paddock, when he had just endured a bad qualifying session in an ill-handling and recalcitrent MG B. Hot and bothered, he was leaning on his trademark motor scooter, and generally seemed thoroughly at odds with his morning. However, this was Stirling Moss, and I had a camera to hand. So I gingerly went up to him and asked "May I take your picture, Mr Moss?"

At once, his countenance changed. He made an expansive gesture with his arms, and with an "Of course, dear boy!" he stepped back from the scooter and posed for my humble little instant camera. We shook hands, and I went away confirmed in my enthusiasm for this legend of motor sport. Needless to say, the resulting snapshot is one of the most cherished items in my collection.

I've scarcely mentioned his racing. I've seen him race competitive modern cars in the BTCC - he was driving the Akai Audi 80 with Martin Brundle in the early 1980s. It was not his forte. Doorhandling with other touring cars does not sit well with his driving finesse. I'll admit I've never seen him in his prime. But Stirling Moss is still a match for most averagely good drivers. Seeing him at Goodwood in '98 taking an Aston DBR1 by the scruff of the neck and dicing with Brundle in a D Type and Tiff Needell in a Lister is one of my all time favourite memories. At 70, he was every bit as aggressive as men half his age.

And that is why Sir Stirling Moss is, for me, every bit the legend he deserves to be.

[marcus]

awesome TimD simply awsome , just what I wanted to hear from his adoring public, he seems be more than justa driver and you summed it up excellently

[David McKinney]

There were many - and not only Brits - who regarded him as simply the best driver in the world, certainly after Fangio retired. It was a bit like if Senna or Schumacher had never won the world championship - they would still be ranked among the greats of their era.
I can't add much to what Tim has said, except that throughout most of the '50s and into the '60s he was the best F1 driver, the best F2 driver, the best F3 driver (until 1954), the best long-distance sportscar driver, the best short-circuit sportscar driver, the best on airfield circuits, the best on open-road circuits - all at the same time.

[Aysedasi]

TimD - magnificent summing-up!! With you all the way.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by marcus
....but yet why did this man who never won a title held in such high regard in especially in England???

In part because he fought that charge about changing lanes in the Mersey tunnel... but it was an era when the poms were looking for heroes, too.

He was, as he and Purdy point out in All But My Life, "the knight going out to defeat the infidel, the one who would give all, perhaps come back with the trophy, perhaps with broken limbs and bleeding nose."

Mossy had his flaws and failings, but he was human and admitted it. He drove anything he drove to its ultimate, and don't forget he was a works rally driver too... won, I think, three Coupes des Alpes in a row.

[AllonFS]

At Le Mans 2001, Moss was in a Jag C type for the historical support race in the morning. The Radio Le Mans crew told the concerned British fans that the reason for his limp was not old age, he had fallen out of a taxi on a night out earlier in the week!

After running across for the traditional Le Mans start he proceeded to do his best to run down the idiot tv crew in the middle of the track before going on to drift his C type around for the next hour, whilst acknowledging the crowd. And of course he won his class.

An absolute legend and national treasure!

(And I haven't even mentioned his victory in the Mille Miglia in 1955, at an average speed of just under 100 mph over 10 hours on public roads...)

[zealot]

I also think that his devotion to British racing teams endeared him to his countrymen.

Despite a few years racing for Maseratti and Mercedes, he was normally in an underpowered, overmatched British car racing the hordes of Italian and German challengers.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by AllonFS
....(And I haven't even mentioned his victory in the Mille Miglia in 1955, at an average speed of just under 100 mph over 10 hours on public roads...)

Don't think that needs mentioning... unless there's a comparison with Nuvolari involved!

[TimD]

Originally posted by AllonFS
At Le Mans 2001, Moss was in a Jag C type for the historical support race in the morning.

Ah, that was some race. And the day beforehand, while the circuit was still open to public traffic, Stirling could be found driving up and down the Mulsanne Straight in his race C Type, taking part in the annual impromptu car cruise.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by msps
May I say that I have Moss autograph for sale at

I was thinking about selling mine too... it's in a book with a bunch of other Australian Grand Prix winners...

What's a fair price, winners of the 100 Miles Road Race, 1949, 1951, 1955, 1956, 1960, 1963, 1964, 1966, 1970, 1971 AGPs, and a few others like the man who made the 1965 event a more memorable race?

And the co-author of the book will autograph it too if you ask nicely... photographs of each of the three deceased autographing drivers included in the deal, each holding the book.

[Bluebottle]

I too have a Stirling Moss autograph- on the program for the 1999 Stoneleigh Kit-Car show- he was there to open the show. We found ouselves holding up the queue of autograph hunters because we said we were going to the Goodwood Revival ...

[Lee Janotta]

I'm sorry, but Moss is overrated. Fangio made him look very ordinary in their season together at Mercedes.

A splendid sports car driver, certainly, a cut above most in any sort of car... But he can't stand shoulder to shoulder with these giants, sorry.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
I'm sorry, but Moss is overrated. Fangio made him look very ordinary in their season together at Mercedes.

A splendid sports car driver, certainly, a cut above most in any sort of car... But he can't stand shoulder to shoulder with these giants, sorry.

Er.............. no I'll let those who are better qualified than me improve your education Lee.

[Lee Janotta]

I just don't see where Moss is a legend. A very good driver, certainly... Better than many who do have championships to their names... But in '55, not once did he lead Fangio until the Argentinian slowed to let him pass at Aintree.

I certainly can't argue with his place in the history of British motorsport, but I think perhaps nationalism makes him stand a bit higher than he should.

But, it's just my opinion.

[Lee Janotta]

Curse that time limit on editing posts... But I figured I'd try and explain my reasoning.

All the other drivers I view as legends, have, well, legends written about them. Nuvolari's '35 Nurburgring and '48 Mille Miglia, Rosemeyer's '36 Nurburgring in the fog, Fangio's '57 Nurburgring, Clark leading the 3.0L cars at Zandvoort in '66 in a 2.0L Lotus-Climax, Villeneuve's 3-wheeled drive at Zandvoort in '79, Senna's near-win at Monaco in '84 in the pouring rain and his "perfect lap" at the same track in '89... Moss, as far as I know, never did anything with a race car that just wasn't thought previously possible.

[Vitesse]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Moss, as far as I know, never did anything with a race car that just wasn't thought previously possible.

Mille Miglia 1955

Argentine GP 1958

Monaco GP 1961

[gfm]

I think the other point is, and maybe we do see this more clearly in the UK was that his brilliance was mostly at the wheel of privately owned teams, customers of the works teams.
Again, in that era, such things took place. Rapant commercial ambition wasn't quite as sharp as it is today. It's felt that had Moss gone straight to Ferrari for example, he'd of been way ahead.
As has been said, the experts in this field would offer a better arguement (please step up...).
I was at Goodwood the day he nearly died and the fact was, he didn't need to be going as fast as he was, something like 2 seconds a lap quicker than the race leader (Hill?), but right down the field, laps back owing to early race car problems. He was absolutely flying, extreme 'Villeneuve' - tigering as DSJ called it.
When he was driving for Mercedes, it was to strict team orders wasn't it? And in those days, you knew how to behave. No one really knows what would have happened if he was let off the leash.

[Lee Janotta]

Well, y'know, I'm always open to new information... My opinion just, well, is what it is, at present.

Take it for what it's worth, from a guy who has never even been on a race track (flat broke).

[Yves]

Originally posted by Vitesse


Mille Miglia 1955

Argentine GP 1958

Monaco GP 1961

So to contribute to Lee's education (but I'm sure he just want us to develop on the subject ) :

There are lots of similitude in Moss and Nuvolari career :

- Both have been used to run some second hand and private cars and got large number of wins with such cars.

- Both have been particularly successful on tracks reputed to be driver track as Monaco and the Nürbürgring but also both have been Mille Miglia's winner.

And some other more funny :

- As already mentionned, Tazio once lost his steering wheel in a race in Italy, Moss did it also somewhere in the UK (I can be back with the races by to morrow).

And to compare Moss to Fangio and despite the fact that Fangio didn't like sports car very much, don't forget the three Stirling's wins in a row on the most selective track in the history : the Nürbürgring, one being achieved with a famous co-driver, the master himself : Fangio who drove in the 1000kms ... only [B]four laps[/] ...
I can be back with the year by tomorrow also ...

And if Moss is the first one to admit Fangio's superiority, it does not make him a backrunner for that ...

Y.

[gfm]

Excellent Yves, thank you for the additional info. Dare I just correct the point that Stirling Moss did not admit so much as to Fangio's superiority - rather that in his opinion, Fangio was the finest driver ever ... and that of course leaves a lot of qualifying unsaid! Look forward to tomorrow's post ...

[TimD]

I'll second that. Beautifully put.

Now, anxiously waiting for tomorrow!

[Lee Janotta]

Me too, I always try to keep an open mind.