History & Statistics

[one five five]

I was re-watching the recent Wilson Security 500 V8Supercar from Sandown and was interested by the commentary, in particular the regular mention of Craig Lowndes being on the verge of matching Peter Brock's record of 9 wins.....thereby obviously including Lowndes '500' wins at both Queensland Raceway and Phillip Island.

It's not hard to see what they are doing, claiming the '500' as one race.... but in the same broadcast they make mention of John Bowe winning the 2001 Sandown 500 in a Ferrari.

They also did not count the two Phillip Island 500s that Peter Brock won in the 70s (presumebly because it wasn't pre-Bathurst)....and indeed don't connect the lineage of the 1971-1977 PI500 with the 2008-2011 PI500

Just interested in people's thoughts (from my perspective as abit of a Motorsport stats and accuracy geek )

[racer69]

I can see why they did/do it and what they are getting at, and it does make it simple to explain in V8Supercar terms to the 'casual viewers', but abit confusing and contradicting when you look at it...... i find it drawing a long bow personally though for the sake of making a story.

This is the same mob remember who will next week wax lyrical about the history and memories of pre-1997 Bathurst enduro's, an event that they themselves removed themselves from and started their own Bathurst event in '97.

Histories, traditons and 'heritage' are the in things at the moment.

Originally Posted by one five five

I was re-watching the recent Wilson Security 500 V8Supercar from Sandown and was interested by the commentary, in particular the regular mention of Craig Lowndes being on the verge of matching Peter Brock's record of 9 wins.....thereby obviously including Lowndes '500' wins at both Queensland Raceway and Phillip Island.

It's not hard to see what they are doing, claiming the '500' as one race.... but in the same broadcast they make mention of John Bowe winning the 2001 Sandown 500 in a Ferrari.

They also did not count the two Phillip Island 500s that Peter Brock won in the 70s (presumebly because it wasn't pre-Bathurst)....and indeed don't connect the lineage of the 1971-1977 PI500 with the 2008-2011 PI500

Once upon a time there was more than just the one 'enduro' in the direct lead-up to Bathurst, and twice there was a second 500km enduro in the leadup to Bathurst....would Brock be counted on 10 if he had won either of the Rothmans 500kms at Oran Park?

[eduardo1]

The simplest way of looking at it - and the way that the current organisers approach it - is that the 500 and 1000 that ran cars that were competing in the Australian Touring Car Championship are the ones that carry the tradition. They do acknowledge (occasionally) the 2 Super Touring 1000s as they were in the accepted Bathurst 1000 format.

In this sense, the pre-Bathurst 500 should be considered as one event, regardless of location.

I'm not familiar with the Phillip Island events you're referring to though, but if, as I'm assuming, the Sandown 500 was also running, the Sandown would be the '500' and the PI event would be more like the Clipsal 500, or the Homebush 500 - different events that happen to be 500 kays.

My personal belief is that in the main, they've got the lineage and history connection fairly right, given all the twists and turns and disputes that have occurred through the years.

[Gaz170]

History is written by the winners.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by eduardo1

The simplest way of looking at it - and the way that the current organisers approach it - is that the 500 and 1000 that ran cars that were competing in the Australian Touring Car Championship are the ones that carry the tradition.

So Bathurst and Sandown pre '73 don't count?

[peckstar]

i think records are a funny thing.

drivers now are setting records for most starts and most wins most pole postions etc, but we race more now considerable. In 2003 (or maybe 4) many weekend had one race. Now they have two or three. 30 years ago there were say 8 - 10 rounds, now there are 14 or so.

[david5]

Originally Posted by chavez

So Bathurst and Sandown pre '73 don't count?

Well done. But let's not let the truth be bought up it only confuses the "casual viewers".

[eduardo1]

Originally Posted by chavez

So Bathurst and Sandown pre '73 don't count?

There's always one isn't there.

[chavez]

Personally I think V8 Supercars are far too obsessed with history. No doubt the opening credits for Seven's telecast next weekend will feature endless images from the past.

The only conclusion I can make, is that they lack confidence in the current product as a promotional tool for Bathurst.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by chavez

Personally I think V8 Supercars are far too obsessed with history. No doubt the opening credits for Seven's telecast next weekend will feature endless images from the past.

The only conclusion I can make, is that they lack confidence in the current product as a promotional tool for Bathurst.

Im not sure of that, Part of what i really enjoy about Bathurst is its history. Watching old videos/ clips is what builds its up.

Its a race with traditions and history and that should be celebrated and not forgotten

[fomoco]

The only thing thats missing from the " Great Race" is that they forget the the first couple that were held had Phillip Island, TO see the old footage from the Armstrong 500 (1960/61/62)before the move to Bathurst.
If they ae truely serious about the history, then thats were it started.
Yes the purest will argue that , buts its Bathurst, yet the origons started a couple of years before at PI.

LIke all sports, they had to start somewhere,

The 1960 Armstrong 500 was an endurance motor race for Australian made or assembled standard production sedans. The event was held at the Phillip Island Grand Prix Circuit in Victoria on 20 November 1960 over a distance of 167 laps x 3.0 miles = 501 miles

The 1961 Armstrong 500 was an endurance motor race for standard production sedans. The event was held at the Phillip Island circuit in Victoria, Australia on 19 November 1961 over 167 laps of the 3.0 mile circuit, a total of 501 miles (807 km).

The 1962 Armstrong 500 was an endurance race for Australian built production cars. The race was held at the Phillip Island circuit in Victoria, Australia on 21 October 1962 over 167 laps of the 3.0 mile circuit, a total of 501 miles. Cars competed in four classes based on the retail price of each model. Officially, only class placings were awarded but the No 21 Ford Falcon driven by Harry Firth and Bob Jane was recognised as "First across the line". This was the third and last Armstrong 500 to be held at Phillip Island prior to the race being moved to the Mount Panorama Circuit at Bathurst in New South Wales where it later became known as the Bathurst 1000.

The 1963 Armstrong 500 was the fourth running of the Armstrong 500 touring car race. It was held on 6 October 1963. After the 1962 race, the Phillip Island Grand Prix Circuit was too damaged to continue to stage the race, forcing it to move to a new location, the Mount Panorama Circuit just outside Bathurst with a new organising club, the Australian Racing Drivers Club. The race was open to standard production sedans with four classes based on the purchase price (in Australian pounds) of the vehicle.
Bob Jane and Harry Firth were the first team to complete the full race distance, taking victory in Class C in their factory backed Ford Cortina GT, the change of both vehicle and circuit making no difference to their result of the previous year. While outright victories were not to be recognised until years later, they had completed a hat-trick of 'first to the line' wins.

[fomoco]

a bit of history, wonder if BJR would run a retro of this, CIG now BOC Gases:
1970 Hardie-Ferodo 500
12E66Commonwealth Industrial Gases Limited Bill Ford
Hans TholstrupFord XW Falcon GTHO Phase II Laps 125 Started 21st

Now this would be retro, but who would drive it:

42A15Woman's Day Carole Corness
Gloria TaylorFord Escort 1300 Mk.ILaps 103 started 60th

[eduardo1]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Im not sure of that, Part of what i really enjoy about Bathurst is its history. Watching old videos/ clips is what builds its up.

Its a race with traditions and history and that should be celebrated and not forgotten

I agree. A big part of what is so special about the race is its history. And one of the great things about the event is that it has such a rich and amazing history. There are fantastic stories to tell from every single Great Race. I love that they focus so much of it on this day - because they all but ignore the history of the ATCC in every other telecast.

My only gripe is that they focus too much on the same bits year on year.

I don't think there's any concerns about the current product. Whatever issues it may have, Bathurst always puts on a great show.

[david5]

The only reasons I watch is the history and the fact that it's Bathurst. 12 Hour has surpassed the 1000 as my favorite event.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by chavez

Personally I think V8 Supercars are far too obsessed with history. No doubt the opening credits for Seven's telecast next weekend will feature endless images from the past.

The only conclusion I can make, is that they lack confidence in the current product as a promotional tool for Bathurst.

Equally amazing considering the lengths V8SA originally went to distance itself from the history of Bathurst. The old - we create our own traditions and history

[one five five]

Originally Posted by eduardo1

I'm not familiar with the Phillip Island events you're referring to though, but if, as I'm assuming, the Sandown 500 was also running, the Sandown would be the '500' and the PI event would be more like the Clipsal 500, or the Homebush 500 - different events that happen to be 500 kays.

The Phillip Island 500 ran from 1971-1977, and someone else mentioned the Oran Park 500s, which was a two-driver race held in 1977 and 1978.....

...ironically in all these years the "Sandown 500" was only 400km and a single driver race.

I find it interesting that they have rathered tie the PI500 from 08-11 with the Sandown enduro (and QR500) and seperated it from the 1971-1977 PI500......yet (as racer69 mentions earlier) V8s directly tie the current Bathurst with the Bathurst event they broke away from in 1997.

When Auto Action ran the winners list in their Sandown preview, the years 1999 and 2000 are left out, as are 2008-2011.... and 2001 is listed as Bowe/Waring winning in a Ferrari, along with 2002 listing Paul Stokell/Anthony Tratt winning in 2002.

Originally Posted by eduardo1

There's always one isn't there.

chavez was stating the truth though.

Heck, some years the sporting regs were different between Sandown & Bathurst, letalone the regs between the ATCC and the enduros

[eduardo1]

Originally Posted by one five five

The Phillip Island 500 ran from 1971-1977, and someone else mentioned the Oran Park 500s, which was a two-driver race held in 1977 and 1978.....

...ironically in all these years the "Sandown 500" was only 400km and a single driver race.

I find it interesting that they have rathered tie the PI500 from 08-11 with the Sandown enduro (and QR500) and seperated it from the 1971-1977 PI500......yet (as racer69 mentions earlier) V8s directly tie the current Bathurst with the Bathurst event they broke away from in 1997.

When Auto Action ran the winners list in their Sandown preview, the years 1999 and 2000 are left out, as are 2008-2011.... and 2001 is listed as Bowe/Waring winning in a Ferrari, along with 2002 listing Paul Stokell/Anthony Tratt winning in 2002.



chavez was stating the truth though.

Heck, some years the sporting regs were different between Sandown & Bathurst, letalone the regs between the ATCC and the enduros

Yeah - there's no hard and fast rule about how these are classified.

The point I was making earlier was that the general approach is that the pre-Bathurst enduro event is considered a single event, regardless of location and length. But not everyone goes by that. I guess it depends on how literal people take things.

And my other comment - I pointed out a 'general approach' and he was looking for a 40 year old technicality to try and be a smarta**e.

[fomoco]

Do the talking heads know why some of the turns have names:

Griffins Bend

Forests Elbow

Murrays Corner

other bits of history they leave out

[david5]

Originally Posted by fomoco

Do the talking heads know why some of the turns have names:

Griffins Bend -After the Mayor who got the circuit built

Forests Elbow-Jack Forrest, bike racer who dragged his elbow

Murrays Corner- Hudson racer who crashed there

other bits of history they leave out

[chavez]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Im not sure of that, Part of what i really enjoy about Bathurst is its history. Watching old videos/ clips is what builds its up.

Its a race with traditions and history and that should be celebrated and not forgotten

I am as interested in the history as anyone but if I see Dick Johnson go on about the rock, or I am told for the 500 millionth time Brock won Bathurst 9 times, or Richo called the crowd a pack of aholes I'll think I'll go insane.

Isn't there something to be proud of or promote from the sports more recent history or present day?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by chavez

I am as interested in the history as anyone but if I see Dick Johnson go on about the rock, or I am told for the 500 millionth time Brock won Bathurst 9 times, or Richo called the crowd a pack of aholes I'll think I'll go insane.

Isn't there something to be proud of or promote from the sports more recent history or present day?

History gets better with age

But that aside love watching the footage of the lap of God, or murph and ambrose tangling or skaifes in the wall, skafes day is done. or the bundy commodore going sideways through the chase

The histories and traditions are what we debate long into the night, round camp fires and pubs. heck even on here we are discusing getting rid of the chase

[Swedish Brick]

9? pffft Brock won 7 and two half races

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

9? pffft Brock won 7 and two half races

[peckstar]

do we reckon this will get a run sometime this weekend

2003

[Umai Naa]

And will Mr Murphy again raise suspicions by vigorously playing it down?