Change to Stop and go penalties (merged)

[Inigo Montoya]

No more stop and go penalties and no more drive through penalties. A driver can from now on only be penalised after the race - after a hearing. After three such "incidents" a driver can be disqualified from a race.

These are the new rules introduced by the FIA, after meeting with team bosses today.

Sounds like a good idea for me - last year's questionable calls on Monty cost us a good three way battle for the WDC. Agree?

[Wrex]

How 'bout a link buddy?

[deeks6]

Tis here...

FIA chief Max Mosely has confirmed that their will be a change in the driver penalties for the 2004 season. Instead of drive-through or stop-go penelties being issued during the race, incidents will be investigated at the end of the race with drivers than have points awarded against them. The possibilty of a race suspension will be if a driver racks up 9 points in a season.


http://www.itv-f1.com/news/news_story/19425

[Wrex]

I fear this is a very bad move.

For one, I like the fact when a driver steps on the podaim, you know he won. Nothing irritates me more than a post race result change.

Secondly, we are at risk of making the drivers fearful of attepting a pass. I dont want the driver with the best lawyer coming out on top.

I agree incidents such as Jerez should bring the full weight of the FIA and drivers should be penalised to the higest degree, but I dont want to stop good moves like Monty on MS at Nurburgring.

Its hard enough to pass as it is, and we want the drivers to think (even more) before they try it?

Last line in the story "But we don't want to discourage people from racing."My boss always told me on one side of 'but' was bull****!

I also noticed they did'nt say what the penalty was? Time added? How do they do that? (example, they can estimate the time to stop and restart but whatabout having to fightback past other cars?)

[Hazza]

Well, all i can say is it stops them giving silly penatlies during a race, they just give 'em after the race...

[Armco Bender]

Good call,let them race then sort it out afterwards.Stop/Go's have done nothing but make races farcical.

[marcus]

I dont like it at all.

I dont mind stop go penalties , I think they are needed , yes the process of deciding what deserves a stop go leaves little to be desired , but as Wrex said at least at the end of the day the podium is the real podium.

I'd rather keep them and get someone in charge of making the decisions who has a clue , not the pillocks they have in charge now.

[Mr V]

Not sure i like this idea, it means that any driver can pull an untoward act in the last 2 races and go unpunished.

"After three such "incidents" a driver can be disqualified from a race."

[Gt_R]

Does the points accumulated reset after every season?

And i agree with MrV, if so, it won't stop a driver from playing tricks on the last 2 races, knowing that he had 3 chances....

[L-B]

remember DC's jumpstart in Indanapolis? instead of a stop go he would now be free to block schuie to his hearts content...

[ljakse]

Originally posted by Wrex
I also noticed they did'nt say what the penalty was? Time added? How do they do that? (example, they can estimate the time to stop and restart but whatabout having to fightback past other cars?)

Or, a driver in second place is 1 sec/lap, or more, faster than a leader, but can't get past him (eg. Hungary), then he does an illegal (what ever that might be) move on the leader at lap 32. After that he builds up bigger gap than 'estimated time of stop&go penalty', he finishes first, and even with that time added, he still has better time then the second guy.
Who won????


I don't like it...

[Mark Webber]

I feel this is a step in the WRONG direction

[v8man]

Originally posted by Mr V
Not sure i like this idea, it means that any driver can pull an untoward act in the last 2 races and go unpunished.

"After three such "incidents" a driver can be disqualified from a race."

It does not mean that as driver is going to get away with an untoward act the first 2 times he does it, the release says:
"There will be a hearing after the race and then a penalty will be imposed, depending on the gravity of the offence.

This means that he can be disqualified from that race, have a time penalty imposed or something similar but if the same driver infringes 3 times in the one season then he can be disqualified from the next race as well

[BootsOntheSide]

Doesn't seem like a good move to me. Drivers are already discouraged from making aggressive mvoes, and this will only get worse. One of he reasons behind the controversial (but ultimately beneficial) Parc Fermé change was to make sure that the cars were legal at the start of the race, so the result was certain once the flag dropped. Now this is being removed.

The points will have to be held over to the next season, because otherwise a driver wills till get penalised less for pulling a dubious mvoe in a late-season race, as they might get punished for that race, but not a suspension for otehr races.

The system has lots of loopholes as well. Ljaske has come up with one, but why wouldn't a driver who hates Hungary, for example, be much mroe keen to commit an infraction at Hockenheim, knowing that he won't lose so uch by missing the next race?

It could also see team orders become even more offensive. Imagine a driver nudging his team-mate's championship rival off, continuing to score useful points, perhaps ahead of other championship rivals. In the next race, a substitute driver comes in, who can basically be used as a battering ram with no punishment to the team.

Besides, there's no guarantee that the fair decision would be taken after the race - it's not as if there's been a retraction or apology for the Montoya penalty in Malaysia 2002, which was almost unanimously seen as unfair.

Anyone who supports the system now has some explaining to do. After a very positive set of changes for 2003, a lot of the good work is being undone.

[Dave Brand]

OK, all you people who favour stop-go penalties, answer me this:

If a penalty later proves to have been incorrectly applied, how do you 'undo' a stop-go?

[Dani Filth]

wrong .. don;t like this ..

[BootsOntheSide]

Dave, the simple answer is that penalties are being applied too heavily right now. Maybe, if the officials have technical data to confirm that an offense has been committed, a stop-go (or more often a drive through) can be applied immediately, otherwise they can decide over the rest of the race (most contentious incidents happen early in the race anyway)

[ASCII Man]

Originally posted by L-B
remember DC's jumpstart in Indanapolis? instead of a stop go he would now be free to block schuie to his hearts content...

Ooooohhh, i like this new rule already!

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
Dave, the simple answer is that penalties are being applied too heavily right now.

That's a subjective opinion.

Maybe, if the officials have technical data to confirm that an offense has been committed, a stop-go (or more often a drive through) can be applied immediately, otherwise they can decide over the rest of the race (most contentious incidents happen early in the race anyway)

What you're proposing there is an inconsistent system of applying penalties. There is no 'technical data' for such offences as dangerous driving, overtaking under yellows, etc. - these rely on observation, backed up if possible, by video evidence. It's very difficult for a race director or a steward to make a snap decision on, for example, a collision. I know from personal experience just how different an incident which has happened right in front of you can look when seen later on TV.

[bosch!]

If we had the same crew of officials from race to race it just might work but I think all this is going to do is make more work for lawyers.

Its going to be a farce.

[oblivion]

Originally posted by bosch!
If we had the same crew of officials from race to race

I agree. Perhaps then we would have fair and consistent application of the rules.

[Kicking-back]

I think this just applies to collisions and the like. You'll still get a drive-through for jumping the start or speeding in the pits or whatever.

And I don't think there's any suggestion of changing a race result - just banning offenders from a future race.

[DaveOrama]

Agreed, they need to have the same stewards applying the penalties.

I don't see a major problem if the decisions are made before the podium presentations. Video footage can be displayed fast enough to enable quick resolution, and with the same stewards at each race this process would be refined and become a free flowing decision process.

Team and/or driver input may be needed, but it does require strict guidelines as to what constitutes a given penalty (i.e. back of grid next race, loss of points, even letting a quicker car through mid race ( for the blocking case, etc). This type of discussion about penalties could be another thread.....

[Teretonga]

Inconsistency in giving pnalties is at the root of the problem. The drivers have asked for the same team of 'professional' stewards at every event to find some sort of consistency but the FIA have come up with this 'solution'...

[devil racer nz]

Full Story here:http://www.planet-f1.com/Home/story_14100.shtml