The Piper/Hales 917 Court Case

[davyboy]

Have a read of this. I understand that David Piper has since won this case.

[terence]

Is this something to be discussed?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Is this something to be discussed?

Nope, not by me at any rate!

[chunder]

Rather strange story, as Mr Hales is perhaps on of the safest pair of hands in test driving there has ever been and Mr Piper seemingly one of the more involved and keen historic drivers.

Must have been awful for both concerned, but surely there must be more of an agreement than you bend it you mend it!

I dont know how these things work, but it all seems very odd and rather unsavoury.

Could understand it if it were some lead footed berk who didnt know what he was doing, but Hales is probably the best and most respected at what he does.

As said before, more to this maybe then we should discuss!

[davyboy]

Why can't this be discussed ?

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by chunder

Rather strange story, as Mr Hales is perhaps on of the safest pair of hands in test driving there has ever been and Mr Piper seemingly one of the more involved and keen historic drivers.

Must have been awful for both concerned, but surely there must be more of an agreement than you bend it you mend it!

I dont know how these things work, but it all seems very odd and rather unsavoury.

Could understand it if it were some lead footed berk who didnt know what he was doing, but Hales is probably the best and most respected at what he does.

As said before, more to this maybe then we should discuss!

I am in total agreement with all of this...

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Why can't this be discussed ?

I've said my bit on 'tea break' over weekend, where this was mentioned! Discuss away.....

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Nope, not by me at any rate!

Nor by me! Having done jury service recently, unless one has been in court to hear ALL the evidence and legal guidance you shouldn't comment. There are far too many 'barrack room lawyers' and it's better not to discuss it!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by johngee

Nor by me! Having done jury service recently, unless one has been in court to hear ALL the evidence and legal guidance you shouldn't comment. There are far too many 'barrack room lawyers' and it's better not to discuss it!

Oh dear...

[terence]

Originally Posted by johngee

Nor by me! Having done jury service recently, unless one has been in court to hear ALL the evidence and legal guidance you shouldn't comment. There are far too many 'barrack room lawyers' and it's better not to discuss it!

Quite agree John,we all know how these things usually turn into a "you said I said" situation,best left for those concerned with the case.

[chunder]

To be fair in jury service you dont get to hear the legal wranglings, all you get to hear is the evidence, and the case has been settled, so no real harm done in discussing what has been revealed.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by chunder

To be fair in jury service you dont get to hear the legal wranglings, all you get to hear is the evidence, and the case has been settled, so no real harm done in discussing what has been revealed.

Unless there's something ulterior we don't know about - possibly implied by the remarks made above - I'm scratching my head as to why a closed case can't be talked about ? There's extensive discussion about it elsewhere on the web, specifically regarding the dreadful plight for Mark Hales.

[Flat Out Farr]

Originally Posted by johngee

Nor by me! Having done jury service recently, unless one has been in court to hear ALL the evidence and legal guidance you shouldn't comment. There are far too many 'barrack room lawyers' and it's better not to discuss it!

I did 18 months jury service starting in April 2000. I agree about the point that unless you are in the court to hear the "facts" then it is all hearsay, and too dangerous to discuss in depth.

It is just a crying shame that this has actually occurred. Mark Hales has a good reputation; I would trust him with testing an expensive toy if I owned such a car (lottery win, where are you?). None of us know whether there was a contract etc. I just hope that Mark has some form of PI insurance, just in case Mr Rumpole finds against him !

[Al Weyman]

Rather strange story, as Mr Hales is perhaps on of the safest pair of hands in test driving there has ever been

Have you first hand experience to back this up Chunder?

[chunder]

Well, I have spoken to quite a few editors who would use him as first choice, not only for his driving but his words. Though some cant afford him!!!

As for the man himself, have never met Mark, but he has been doing this rather a long time, and as far as I know this sort of thing has never happened to him before? ANd the fatc he is so long serving must mean something or has he been very lucky? I imagine the former.

It must happen to road/track testers routinely I imagine? All part of the game I would think.

I read a lot of stuff by Alan Cathcart or Sir, and he has crashed numerous race bikes, and though he might get refused by one or two his reputation remains intact as the Lord of motorcycle track testing, and he is similar, a succesful racer who has great contacts and can also rider a bit aswell as write well?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Flat Out Farr

None of us know whether there was a contract etc. I just hope that Mark has some form of PI insurance, just in case Mr Rumpole finds against him !

Details of the case are in the public domain.

The case is over. It was found in favour of Piper. I believe Mark Hales has said elsewhere that he is in the hole for circa £165K, is facing potential bankruptcy and the loss of his home. If that's true, it's very serious indeed.

[Kevin Cooke]

I have met Mark on several occasions and have had a number of days instruction from him using rented track prepared cars, aside from his easy to understand instruction process the other thing that is obvious is his clear mechanical sympathy and love of machinery. I'd also point to him being Nick Mason's longstanding peddler of choice for things like his 250 GTO.

This case therfore amazes me.

Regards

Kevin

[Al Weyman]

Oh dear thats very sad for Mark. We did have issues with broken cars on a track test he did for ModProds for CC&C but who knows the cars may have had problems anyhow. My only complaint was he called my IROC-Z Camaro a Capri in the article and to a Chevy man insults dont rate much higher!

All joking aside I do think sooner or later this is going to rear its ugly head again especially with so much car sharing going on to help with expenses and if someone gets killed or seriously injured in a borrowed car due to component failure what happens then. Maybe some smart lawyer could draw up an all encompassing but simple contract and put in the public domain accessable by all even for a small fee that can be printed off to help these scenarios as I fear its going to come.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

All joking aside I do think sooner or later this is going to rear its ugly head again especially with so much car sharing going on to help with expenses and if someone gets killed or seriously injured in a borrowed car due to component failure what happens then. Maybe some smart lawyer could draw up an all encompassing but simple contract and put in the public domain accessable by all even for a small fee that can be printed off to help these scenarios as I fear its going to come.

Several people asked earlier why this case needs to be discussed. Al, you've highlighted exactly why here. The outcome of this case could have extremely serious repercussions for anyone who lends a car to a third party.

[Tim Falce]

Mod Note:
If you want to talk about it then do so until a mod deems otherwise if we get problems, if you don't want to talk about then you are under no obligation to post.
Normal rules apply, please keep it friendly etc.

[johngee]

This all reminds me of one of my favorite quotes

"If you want justice, go to a brothel. If you want to get f*****d, go to court."

[STUBBY44]

Mark lives close to me and is always very friendly and helpfull.
What a shame about all this.
Just a guy doing a job of work to the best of his ability.

Personally I dont think it needs discussing in an open forum.

[dave vass]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Several people asked earlier why this case needs to be discussed. Al, you've highlighted exactly why here. The outcome of this case could have extremely serious repercussions for anyone who lends a car to a third party.

I couldn't agree more with this. I have been a friend of Mark Hales for over forty years and know that he is highly respected as a 'sympathetic' driver of historic cars; just ask Nick Mason for one.
He has on this instance been 'caught out' on a 'test' case which will leave motoring journalists quaking in their driving shoes!
Mark is such a smashing fellow, talented driver and competent journalist; but of course all this stands for nothing when an issue like what has happened to him occurs!
I hope all others who borrow, lend, share their cars will heed the warning of what Mark has sadly had to suffer at a life-changing cost!

[midgetman]

It's unfortunate that 2/3rds of the bill is costs, and reinforces the impression that justice is only for the well-heeled.

I'm sure that the legal eagles are worth every penny thanks to their long and expensive training, and I make my comment only from a position of jealousy. But really, we need to get a sense of perspective and stop a legal proceedings trebling the original disputed amount, it's an absolute scandal. Jarndice is alive and kicking!

[gt917]

A good peddlar and friendly ... yes.

Mechanically sypathetic ... ?