Stoddies Traction Control Threat.

[hamsmith]

Hello guys,
I've just read that Paul Stoddard of Minardi is threatining to withdrawing his supply for traction control if the manafacturers do not make engines affordable to other teams. i was wondering how everyone feels about Minardi and it's importance in F1. Do you think the top teams should be providing social security for back markers to avoid running a third team or do you think it is simply if you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen?

www.autosport.com/newsitem.asp?id=26141&s=5

[Kicking-back]

It's not about social security for back markers.

The FIA had an agreement that teams could keep traction control if manufacturers made engines available to independents at an affordable price.

The manufacturers haven't done that - so it's only right they should be made to stop using traction control.

F1 needs Minardi and independent teams.

When manufacturers get bored and pull out it's the independents who keep the show on the road.

[Peter Mallett]

What does "affordable" mean?

[ASCII Man]

I would like a Cossie V10 for $50 if it's possible

[Super Tourer]

To be fair to Stoddart, the Max Moseley style trade off which allowed for traction control to continue with the 'lever' that engines be made affordable for privateers ($10M is the figure that keeps being mentioned), seems to have got brushed under the FIA carpet.

I trust EJ is feeling suitably humble too, as he sat unusually mute at THE press conference where this issue came up ,leaving PS to fight his (and intruth EJ's) corner.

But allegedly at that time EJ though he had a supply of cheap merc engines in the bag and didn't appear to want to rock the corporate boat.

As a race fan, I do resent that F1 rules appear to be applied via some sort of high stakes poker game, where inevitably those that hold most chips will win.

[hamsmith]

[i]
As a race fan, I do resent that F1 rules appear to be applied via some sort of high stakes poker game, where inevitably those that hold most chips will win. [/B]

If the rules were more fair to all than we might as well watch formula renault or somthing.

[grumpy1]

I agree.The FIA want to make F1 more affordable for the privaters and that was the trade off.If the engine makers(who are allingned with the big teams) don't want to play ball then Stoddart has every right to withdraw his support for traction control.You can't have a set of rules that applies to the big 4 and a set that applies to the rest.If the big teams get there noses out of joint over it tough.You agreed to it live with it.Without the privaters F1 would have no nursery for new drivers.

The Grumpy1

[Super Tourer]

The point I was making is that if the FIA want to make rules, then they should apply them, not trade off one part of the rule book against concessions to factory teams in order to get their approval.

Under Max Moseley the FIA rules by deal's. Think back to the start of 2003, when MM produced a whole raft of proposals, banning pit to car telemetary, even pit to car radio, etc - these were mere bargaining tools, or chips at the poker table if you like, which could be discarded, or traded, in order to implement some of the changes they really wanted.

TC was supposed to be banned from Silverstone last year, but as ever this has not happened, because yet another deal (the 'cheap' engine supply) was wheeled out to countermand it. it is this 'deal' that PS says has not materialised.

Rule's should be fair to all, I can't see the parallel with a junior formula, in fact they are the only equivalency, as we know in pure budget terms the gap between the top four teams and the bottom two is enormous.

[Wrex]

Good assessment ST.

Does F1 need Minardi, no. Does it need privateer teams with small budgets to com last - absolutley!

Had Jordan and Minardi dropped out last season, the last teams on the grid would have been Jaguar and Toyota. How long do you think Ford and Toyota would shell out millions of $$$ to come last before they said "**** this, we are out of here!"?

It is the biggest flaw in the manufacturers plans for a break away series - who will come last.

The manufacturers are using F1 as a marketing tool for self interest alone (nothing wrong with that btw), and if they agree the prsice for that is they have to supply smaller teams then so be it.

Dont agree to it if you have no intention of honoring it.

What if BS only wanted to supply Ferrari, and Mich Williams and MacLaren. Would we think that was ok because that was where they got value for money?

[sgjb]

Hey Wrex,

Would that be the reason nobody wants to supply engines cheaply to Minardi, because they would still be considered last.

Minardi I think would be on the back of the grid irreguardless of what engines they have. Would make BMW crazy to think there engine was at the back of the grid week in and week out!!

[grumpy1]

The thing that these people forget is if you supply Minardi with a customer engine it is A.different to what your main team is usingand B.even though they are at the back of the feild they can help in the development of a better engine.

The Grumpy1

[Teretonga]

The point is not that they would be on the back of the grid but that they would be on the back of the grid paying less for their back of the grid engines.
If they and Jordan had access to a cheaper engine option that still gave better HP more of their existing budget could be diverted to chassis development and car competitiveness, then they might be able to make more of their existing budget if they had to spend less on their engines. Even if it only got them a second or two closer to the tail end factory teams it would make a huge difference to the competitiveness of the whole show.
In this respect the existing inflow of money from the manufacturers has not been good for the sport.The Ford approach of the late sixties and seventies was much positive for GP 'racing', providing a base engine that was fairly competitive at a reasonable price is in fact what enabled McLaren and Williams to lay the foundations of the technical superteams they have now become.

[grumpy1]

Yeh but on the other hand we have say BMW supply an engine to Miarddi and it beats home the main player.Thats not going to be very well received is it?

The Grumpy1

[RWC]

The FIA think they know how to run the sport,so max plays high stakes poker with the little teams as chips- and loses.
The big teams KNOW they run f1,they're just trying to not act like they do so as to avoid the uncomfortable reactions of fans
Stoddy thinks he has a bargaining chip to play with.Maybe he does .It will be interesting (but very ugly and undignified)to see who wins this round...
frankly i'm thoroughly sick of them all!!!!!

Max needs a serious kick in the face (for anything he ever said or did)

The big teams need to told what to do

the little teams need a dose of reality

formula one needs to stop subsidizing ferrari

Unfortunately none of the above will happen.....

[golem]

Actually, All it'll take is for the FIA to say: Enough is enough, teams, give us 10million a year. Tell us which manufacturer who is playing the game you want to be supplied by.
Then, they walk over to the manufacturer who wants to be involved, buy the motor. Make sure it's the same spec as every other motor bought for the intended rounds. These then get handed to the teams, one engine for each car and one for a spare. Any extra motors will be supplied at massive penalty.
Each manufacturer must have their engines ready for teams to select and develop their prototypes around by june the previous year.
The manufacturer decides what badging they want their motor to carry. (Ford may want the cossies on the Minardi badged as Volvo's or something )

[ActiveMS]

As said above F1 needs privateers....simple as that.

I cant see why manufacturers couldnt supply engines for 10m, especially when the feedback from data analysis etc can be used to develop the engines further for the top teams. Manufacturers surely can subsidise on the basis of the additional information provided?

Simply maths, the more engines you have running on the same track, the more information you will gain and thus better research and development and the end product.

[Cobra]

Minardi have done a lot for F1 they have brought along some of the best drivers around.

[BootsOntheSide]

Anyone who thinks that Private teams aren't needed in F1 is seriously short-sighted. We won't have 7 manufacturers running or heavily backing teams indefinately, at which point smaller teams, ran by enthusiasts, are needed to run teams to fill the grid, not to mention give new drivers a chance.

How many drivers got their first drivers in manufacturer-owned teams? I can only think of da Matta and Klien out of this year's grid. Everyone else is brought in by privateers.

The manufacturers and FIA made a deal - traction control would be allowed to stay IF affordable engines were brought in for the smaller teams - and now they've reneged on it. Paul has every right to be angry.

[Smokey 6 litre]

i lost a lot of repect for Eddie Jordan when he left Paul Stoddard alone on the TC debate, especially when it was to help himself (cheap merc or jag engines)

keep rocking the boat Stoddie!

[Red]

Formula 1 definitelly needs Minardi. That does not however mean that it needs Stoddard. Stoddard can be angry all he wants, but he has absolutely no right to make claims. Especially angry claims.

[John Abrahamsen]

Ford and Toyota

Not to mention Mercedes, Honda, BMW and Renault (and Ferrari) .

They got the same approach to the sport m8.

Can you tell who have been making engines to privateers all the time? It would certainly not be manufacturers would it?

F1 needs manufacturers. Manufacturers needs nothing.

If you would like to spend millions on a private F1 team like mister Minardi and Eddie does today, you are welcome. There are not very man people willing to use that kind of money on nothing. They surely don`t have much of a profit to pull out of the team.

Do you really think that manufacturers are interested in providing engines to privateers with a loss? Do you think that you could develop a really good F1 engine for 10 million? Manufacturers are not in F1 for charity. If they wanted to support the privateers they could have sent them some money once in a while and pretend like nothing. They compete in the same series. Its not normal that you support your rival. That would be like Jews sending money over to Palestinians because they are bader equipped. Do we see that?

Would you sell your 3000$ PC for 500$ to Minardi?

If privateers cant take the heat then they should quit. Look at Williams. He made a great team out of what started out and still are a privateer team.

Remember that privateer teams also have the same attitude to pulling out as manufacturers. There are pretty many privateer teams which have come and gone through the years.

[ASCII Man]

If its old, then it's likely i would.

[Red]

Yeah, I'd sell a 3,000 PC for 500 to you tomorrow (actually I do have that piece of HW somewhere in my closet, want it? ) But I'll invest some more and buy a new one, I'll play the ultimate 3d game while you can only play tetris.

Stoddard wants a $3000 PC for $500 (better for nothing, preferrably a checque attached to the PC too) but he wants the latest model.

[DSM]

Williams is hardly a 'privateer' team. they have been manufacturer backed for years.

[BootsOntheSide]

Sorry John but I don't agree with any of that. Teams have only pulled out for financial reasons, or because the owner can no longer cope (usually due to age or ill-health - examples include Vanwall and Cooper).

Engines being produced by big manufacturers doesn't mean teh teams have to be controlled by them. Even as recently as 20 years ago teams were winning races with off-the-shelf customer engines, before the turbo era (started by Renault, BMW and Ferrari for their own gain) made this impossible).

Manufacturers enter F1 to boost the profit of their cars. Once a few of them have entered, everyone else realistically haas to. And F1 doensa't need it's teams to be ran by greedy self-centred companies with little lvoe for racing. there's far more need for the likes of Eddie and Paul - racing men through and through.

Calling Williams a Privateer team is laughable when you consider how much direct technical support, let alone funding, BMW give them. If they didn't have that help, they'd be straggling with the private teams.

Also, you haven't touched on teh basic point of this thread - Paul's (IHMO valid) complaints about the teams conning him with their expensive traction control.