Time for LMP3?

[Rubinho]

I just finished reading an interesting article in Racecar Engineering called Time for LMP3?

In the article it discusses the rise of small prototypes such as Radical, Jade, Chiron etc. and their involvement in national series such as Britsports (UK), VdeV (France) and the SCCA one the name of which I can't recall.*

It then goes onto suggest the ACO get involved by specifying LMP3 regulations along the lines of LMP aero regulations, min weight 550kg, 8 cylinder max, 3L atmo, 1.5L turbo engines. These regulations would be the basis for national series to tie together the rather disparate rules of the existing ones to allow manufacturers to develop cars for all the series with an aim to there being an LMP3 class at Le Mans. The rationale being that the cars could be run for the same price or cheaper than a GT but would have lap speeds approaching F3 therefore quite a bit quicker.

I found the article quite compelling as I am very interested in the development of these mini-prototypes. What do you think about the proposal? Would it be a benefit to national prototype series or would it hinder them? Would you watch or get involved in the races?

* I'm working from memory after reading the article last night.

[cybersdorf]

LMP3 as a class at Le Mans may not be called for, but formulating rules for "sub-LMP" competition isn't necessarily a bad idea.

The FIA Gp.CN regulations are a bit tired these days, and really only good for hillclimbing; and championships like Britcar, Sports Car Challenge, VdeV, or the SCCA sports racer classes all formulate their own package. A bit of unification may strengthen the scene as a whole, and make life easier for manufacturers, too.

[Mal]

I agree with an LMP3 category for national series, but Le Mans and now LMEs really have no need for it as they already have full or oversubscribed grids.

[cybersdorf]

This is not the topic here but, Le Mans oversubscribed? Hardly. And ALMS needs all the help it can get. But it shouldn't come from such cars, but rather from the established LMP/GT classes.

[BSchneiderFan]

Maybe as a national category, but I tend to think we already have too many categories, not too few.

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Maybe as a national category, but I tend to think we already have too many categories, not too few.

It would have to (and if set up well then I believe it could) happen at the expense of other classes.

[BSchneiderFan]

But which? GT2? LMP2?

[LC2guy]

Perhaps formulate regs for LMP3 as a bottom rung of the ladder. Teams can learn about protos in National LMP3 cars before stepping up to LMP2 or LMP1 internationally, much as Brit GT teams do before going FIA-GT or LMES. Perhaps a 2 hour LMP3 race using cars from all the National championships on Saturday morning at Le Mans before the 24 hrs could become the traditional curtain raiser. Just my thoughts.

[Rubinho]

Originally Posted by cybersdorf

A bit of unification may strengthen the scene as a whole, and make life easier for manufacturers, too.

This is where I see the value of common regulations coming from. Having LMP aero regulations would also get the smaller manufacturers on a path where they can understand the higher classes and hopefully move into them. I could see it spawning more LMP2.

In my eyes there could never be too many prototypes!

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by Rubinho

I could see it spawning more LMP2.

I'm not sure if too many of the current small manufacturers are ready to make the step up.

Radical, PRC, Norma, Osella, Lucchini...

Hm, in fact there are quite a few!

[Rubinho]

Radical already have their SR9 LMP2 car which is expected to compete in ALMS/LMES later this year and Le Mans in 2007. The step up wouldn't be easy and most manufacturers wouldn't make the jump but in terms of business case for expanding their businesses I think most would appreciate a proven path.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by cybersdorf

This is not the topic here but, Le Mans oversubscribed? Hardly. And ALMS needs all the help it can get. But it shouldn't come from such cars, but rather from the established LMP/GT classes.

I though there were 70 odd entries for 50 places this year - thats oversubscribed to me

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by Mal

I though there were 70 odd entries for 50 places this year - thats oversubscribed to me

And there is easily room for another 10 cars on that grid. But, again, that's not the subject here (perhaps the mods would like to split these posts and create a topic of its own?)...

[Tim Northcutt]

Why not do it as an ALMS Support Series...

Currently, there is no form of "transition" series where GT drivers could get prototype experience before moving up to the LMP2 level of competition...

I believe that a variety of builders would love to have such an opportunity to do so as a "transition step" for their future plans as well....

Wish I would have thought of that...

[tblincoe]

As a national series, sure. But not as an actual class in ACO sportscar racing IMO.

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Why not do it as an ALMS Support Series...

Yes but possibly in conjunction with the SCCA, to replace a few series rather than just add one.

Wish I would have thought of that...

Yes amazing, is it not.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by cybersdorf

Yes but possibly in conjunction with the SCCA, to replace a few series rather than just add one.

I would rather have IMSA sanction it.....

Maybe Mr. Mayer and Mr. Robinson would consider such a proposal if there were...let's say...8-10 builders that would LOVE to have this opportunity and could provide affordable turn-key cars for less than $100,000.....

It would make a great support series that would bring builders who WANT to work with IMSA into the "Family"

Interesting concept...isn't it???

[JAG]

NAtional GT racing is becoming way too expensive so an LMP3 formula could well fill that gap.

Maybe joint LMP3/GT2 grids.

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

if there were...let's say...8-10 builders that would LOVE to have this opportunity and could provide affordable turn-key cars for less than $100,000.....

Are there that many worldwide, never mind America?

[Tim Northcutt]

Well...

Radical Extreme Sportscars
Panhard Motorsports
Hartham
ADR-Aurora Motorsports (ADR's operation in the USA)
Chiron World Sportscars
Saker Motorsports
Diasio Car Company
Turner Auto Design
Norma
Juno

That's 10....

Then, for good measure, toss in other well-known builders, such as:

Phoenix Race Cars
Speads
Lee Stohr Race Cars
Van Diemen
Cabrir
CvO
Fesas Sports Racers
Star (the same company that builds the Star Mazda Chassis...also builds a sports racer)
Aldee (Brazil)
MCR??? (I Think that is correct...the major builder in Brazil)

There are 20 builders, just off the top of my head....

Most (if not all) have won or had podiums in national series where they compete, and know how to build quality sports racers....

If each provided just 2 cars (and certain ones would provide a lot more) you would have a 40-car field....

Sounds like the makings for a pretty good support series to me....

A wide variety of cars (some are open-top, others closed cockpit), engines and origins of makes.....

[cybersdorf]

Welll if you are going to name every sportscar builder out there then will you please also name PRC.

Realistically though, how many build cars that compare in any way to Le Mans prototypes, how many are capable of setting up the kind of customer support that will be necessary, how many have built carbon fibre tubs, etc.?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by cybersdorf

Welll if you are going to name every sportscar builder out there then will you please also name PRC.

Realistically though, how many build cars that compare in any way to Le Mans prototypes, how many are capable of setting up the kind of customer support that will be necessary, how many have built carbon fibre tubs, etc.?

Cy, lets just say that the top 10 have built, or have the capability for certain. Many of the others as well. This is without looking at people such as those in LMP2, who could build a smaller still car.

[ss_collins]

the four chassis builders highlighted in the LMP3 feature plus Radical all provide a full customer support package.

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

the four chassis builders highlighted in the LMP3 feature plus Radical all provide a full customer support package.

And that's only five of the ten - I don't mean to dismiss the others' work as not good enough, but I'd rather be realistic now than diesppointed later.

[Tim Northcutt]

Trust me....you would not be disappointed....

I'm certainly not an authority, but Fogelhund is correct...at least those top ten that I listed have full and complete capabilities to build a competitive LMP3....

and can provide the necessary customer support to back it up.....

Based on those ten alone, you could realistically field as many as 30 cars...or more...

To ensure stability, you could even form a Manufuacturers Association that would provide the builders, via economies of scale, some buying power with suppliers and other aspects of the industry to make them even more affordable to build and buy, and include an enforcable Code of Ethics to ensure customer support.....

The sport really needs this at the sports racer level....and it would be a major step toward long-term health for racing at this level

and before that idea gets poked at, I've corresponded with a number of builders who would welcome such a concept with open arms...