Feedback

[JimW]

Most of the observer's report forms we use (which are a dog's breakfast in many cases, but that's another thread) in the UK have a space at the bottom saying "Post informed of outcome at (Time). . . "

This year I have done 12 days observing and submitted about 50 reports (I write down details of incidents etc. in a notebook and then transcribe as required to formal reports).

There was feedback in about five cases. Even if you assume that only 50% requred any decision, this is a poor ratio.

First thing to say is that it is the feedback which is wanted. To know more is perhaps to understand better.

Secondly, I wonder if some clerks are scared that their inaction might then be highlighted? (I know who you are and you know who you are. And I'm not saying or speculating.)

Or are clerks saying that we are wasting our time giving inaccurate, unnecassary or poor quality reports? If you don't tell us, we can't improve.

I know this is a cheeky summary and I know all the other factors which go into RC decision-making but I think we might benefit from re-visiting the topic.

Also I notice that we are getting less and less information from Race Control about why things have come to a halt. Now RC is of course fully aware that most marshals carry scanners/radios to listen in on. Whether this is cause or effect does not matter and I'm not saying it is a bad thing. Indeed I do it and regard it as a very good thing if used by people with some discipline and half a brain.

I still think that a quick ring round the posts would not only check that information has been correctly gathered but enhance the team feeling.

Regards

Jim

[Mark Mitchell]

Just written a lenghthy reply to this but for some reason it did not send!

In short.........no problems with feedback at Oulton - the Chief Obs is pretty good with this as are the Clerks!

[Neil Warland]

From my perspective (Incident Marshal) I would like to hear about outcomes from the 'minor' incident reports. For example last week at Brands we were asked by race control to report any driver who cut through the short circuit instead of taking the full GP loop.

Having reported a certain French BTCC driver for doing just so during qualifying, we heard nothing else on the issue. Now the CoC may have decided no action was necessary etc. etc. I'm not bothered about that, it's more the fact we never did find out if any action was taken.

The results of this lack of feedback was highlighted to me a couple of years ago when a (different) BTCC driver overtook a car behind the s/c. I spotted it, reported it to my observer who said "There's no point in reporting that because they never do anything about it anyway."

[Nighthawk]

I must say i did a 750 club meeting at Mallory a few months ago as a trainee Observer,
I had to write a report on an incident that was rather serious.
After handing in report the CoC was on the phone informing me of the outcome within the hour.
I was impressed, but got away from circuit quick as i did not want to meet the driver.....!!!
But yes on the whole we never do get feedback which is a shame.

Again at the A1, i was Observing and the course car just did not stop or even want my reports i gave up in the end.

[Nighthawk]

I must say i did a 750 club meeting at Mallory a few months ago as a trainee Observer,
I had to write a report on an incident that was rather serious.
After handing in report the CoC was on the phone informing me of the outcome within the hour.
I was impressed, but got away from circuit quick as i did not want to meet the driver.....!!!
But yes on the whole we never do get feedback which is a shame.

Again at the A1, i was Observing and the course car just did not stop or even want my reports i gave up in the end.

[Stoowert]

I just get the impression that RC are keen on communication - one way! They want us report anything that THEY think is pertinent, and then don't consider that we matter! As part of my post-briefing I often say that we are all observers and if anyone sees anything untoward, let me know and I'll pass it on. By lunchtime (!) I can see the attitude of the post changing to "Why Bother?" I'm afraid it's the same line of thinking that has pre-meeting briefings at the control tower, where RC is, not at sign-on, where the marshals are...IMHO the smaller the club, the better the communication.

[Shelagh]

When I have been on race telephones, we have always made an effort to keep posts informed of delays, etc.

Sometimes it just isn't possible because we are busy doing other things (like catching up on writing up the race log which has to be done).

And you would be surprised at how many times I have called up a post to tell them something - and they tell me the message first, because they've heard it on a scanner. It almost makes you feel like you are wasting your time but, as I point out, I don't know which posts have scanners and which don't.

I think it is about time that all observers posts were issued with a scanner/radio for listening in. All the old arguments about why marshals shouldn't use scanners are laughable nowadays - with so many actually owning them (including myself). Although I think the BARC still put this on their final instructions!!!!

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Shelagh

. . .And you would be surprised at how many times I have called up a post to tell them something - and they tell me the message first, because they've heard it on a scanner. It almost makes you feel like you are wasting your time but, as I point out, I don't know which posts have scanners and which don't.

And that's why I'm always careful not to tell Race telephones when we have found out something another way. You never know; we might have mis-heard or they might have the right answer rather than the one which came over the radio. I've known both to happen.

Of course, the question of the best way of communicating with/between posts has had a good airing on several threads in the past.

Regards

Jim

[MacGWC]

The Clerk should always be aware that phones work in both directions. If the Clerk wants clarification of a report, ring the person who wrote it. The Clerk should always tell the reporting official what happened and the reasons for any inaction. Race Control should always make sure that marshals are kept informed when the programme "stutters". I can think of no reason for any exceptions to these rules, all points that were made in the Marshals' Club paper on marshalling ills for the MSA.

[Bryan Degerlund]

Originally Posted by Shelagh

I think it is about time that all observers posts were issued with a scanner/radio for listening in. All the old arguments about why marshals shouldn't use scanners are laughable nowadays - with so many actually owning them (including myself). Although I think the BARC still put this on their final instructions!!!!

Shelagh, the BARC no longer include scanners on their "forbidden" list, only cameras and mobile phones. I believe scanners were removed last year. But, as has been stated many times, scanner received information should be just that -- INFORMATION -- and should not be acted upon in isolation.

[TwoSheds]

Originally Posted by JimW

Also I notice that we are getting less and less information from Race Control about why things have come to a halt. Now RC is of course fully aware that most marshals carry scanners/radios to listen in on. Whether this is cause or effect does not matter and I'm not saying it is a bad thing. Indeed I do it and regard it as a very good thing if used by people with some discipline and half a brain.

I am one of the scanner brigades and find it very useful as another source of information but my experience is the opposite in that I think the numbers of marshals with scanners is quite small. Anyway, RC shouldn't assume that each post has one or more scanners available, if telephone is the official means of communication then that should be used for all cases, although I do acknowledge that at some circuits a ring round to all posts can take an awfully long time!

[whatapalaver]

I am sure that the CoC may sometimes receive reports that are not as useful as they could be, and a gentle word or two would up the quality.

I am equally sure that all concerned would be grateful for feedback from RC or the CoC. Should the CoC feel no action is required, or a swift talking to is due - then so be it. But should the driver not learn and repeat the matter a 2nd report would be more useful.

Without feedback those on post feel reporting is a waste of time and effort and simply don't do it. Without reports the CoC has his/her hands tied and cannot act.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by TwoSheds

I am one of the scanner brigades and find it very useful as another source of information but my experience is the opposite in that I think the numbers of marshals with scanners is quite small. Anyway, RC shouldn't assume that each post has one or more scanners available, if telephone is the official means of communication then that should be used for all cases, although I do acknowledge that at some circuits a ring round to all posts can take an awfully long time!

I suspect it varies a lot between circuits. At Oulton last weekend I think that out of 12 marshals at least six had radio/scanner.

Ther may be technological reasons for some circuits, e.g. those which use two frequencies.

Regards

Jim

[gwar]

This year we decided to become trainee observers, and in the morning breifings we have been asked to write reports on every incident, fine not a problem.
Each event and at end of each race our reports were collected (if the c.o.c decides to act on these it is obviously there decision.. not a problem) but on our last event the last race i was told by race control thay didnt want these reports and didnt even collect them......so why have i bothered and what is the point in me wasting my time when we dont even get any feed back as to why ..and not even a thankyou....
I love this sport but i can spectate as well as marshall, is it any wonder marshalls are walking away.
I will bring this up on training day.

[Andrew Palmer]

Last weekend at Rockingham I was required to observe normally I'm an incident marshal. Nothing much happened on the Saturday. Then on Sunday I did report an over taking under the SC and one side to side contact on a straight! I heard back about both incidents first no my scanner then by telephone. But then again I did phone RC every hour for an update on the race after the first 2 1/2 hours. After the race I discovered that other posts had gotten updates during the race but these appeared only to have started after my first request for an update.

The answer appears to me to be if you want to know whats happening phone RC and ask even if you make a pain of yourself, by phone every ten minutes they get the message and pass information on to you. And most importantly be polite the person on the other end their only the middle person and have to pass on your request or information to those that think they are in charge.

[Clive]

I would just confirm that the smaller meeting tend to be ready to give feedback quickly. The bigger the event the less likely you are to receive any information. Even chasing up RC via the Chief Obs had no result, and follow up days after the event still nothing. In fact at THE big event next year even if i see something it probably wont be worth suibmitting it as on the last two occasions nothing has happened when I have phoned in and written up the report, and the drivers concerned got away with overtaking under waved yellows (SC on one occasion) whilst marshals were trackside.
Well, if they don't care about, why should we care about them.................

[theracegypsy]

I am saddened by the apparent " lets not bother" attitude which seems to be coming out in this thread. I certainly have the same grumbles that feedback is not always forthcoming, and that does get disheartening.

But... if we as, observers, just drop the rattle out the pram, we are not going to get changes. Keep asking for updates, ask your BMMC rep to bring it up at committe meetings, and bring it up yourselves at morning briefings with the COC or deputy.

Eventually the idea will get through to COCs that it is part of their job desciption.

It also is interesting to see the removal of scanners from the prohibited list. Having been working in North America for years, where an open line system is the norm, it is much easier to get feedback out to all posts. There is the additional incentive that the COC knows that all posts hear the report going into RC, so he knows more than just one post is expecting to hear feedback.

[johngee]

I always try and get a message back to the observer on any serious incidents or situations (or even speak personally) but sometimes it can get overlooked, for which I can only apologise (it can get a bit hectic in Race Control sometimes). But I NEVER mind being asked for feedback, so always feel free to ask.