Are Kent's getting tired

[Walshy]

I love Formula Ford 1600. Always have. Great fun to drive and it doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg (although current climate dictates it does).

The one thing I found at the start of this year though, and I'm not referring to my own problems, is that there were a lot of cars with problems at the start of the year. Engine and electrical problems that would normally be related to the end of the year when components are tired and engines need doing.

This could be attributed to one of three things?

One. A shortage of knowledge on car preparation. There seems to be a lot of people out there that know a lot about 1600's, but they seem to be spread rather thinly due to the rising number of competitors. I know I have struggled to get components and it just seems to be that the guys making the parts are bombed out.

Two. The people who have cars don't know what they are doing with them and as such, bring the car to the circuit and it all goes the way of the pear.

or

Three. And this is the one I think is more the case. Some of these cars and engines are getting on. There are engines out there that are over 25 years old. Isn't there a case that no matter how many times an engine is rebuilt, the whole unit becomes fatigued and loses its effectivness? The older cars become even softer in the chassis causing more strain on suspension components and no matter how much TLC you put into a car, like most things that get older, they age?

Just a thought. It would be nice to hear some comments on this.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[blue nose]

Chris there is probabley only another thirty years left in FF1600.

[Julesaofracing]

In any discipline at any level in motorsport formula ford or other there is no substitute for thorough race preparation, a well and correctly prepared car will always be reliable and if set up correctly competitive in its class. A good knowledge base of running any car can only be gained through experience over time and linking this with a good understanding of fundamental engineering will result in a competitive car, the key variables being the drivers ability and luck!. With regards to the privateer needing help most teams like ourselves at FF1600 level are more than pleased help and advise other competitors, all they have to do is ask!

[Walshy]

I'm not questioning the preparation. What I meant was surely, no matter how many times a race engine is rebuilt to the best quality, it must still show signs of fatigue after 25 years + of use.

[Barny]

Supposedly an aged block is better as all the stress's are removed, the engine blocks at the heart of the BMW 1.5 litre turbo F1 engines were supposedly 2002 engine blocks that had sat outside for ten years!

[JohnMiller]

2002? Ah, see what you mean..

[blue nose]

I have heard something like that along those lines but how can an engine get stressed just by sitting out side getting rusty......

[johnh875]

Barny the story I heard/read was they used blocks that had done 100,000km in a road car.

[goughy]

They had a problem with the new blocks that they were too soft. One of the BMW guys decided to try a rusty old one and it was found that in that time the metal had settled down and they were spot on for what they need them for.

Cosworth used to get blocks from scrap yards too.

[Revracing]

It is not as common nowadays but in the "old days" iron castings such as engine blocks were deliberately "weathered" for several years prior to machining for use. This was to allow the material to "age harden". And yes a much more stable material was the result. I have heard many stories along the lines of some motorsport engineers supposedly dug out an old engine block from the back of beyond and having rebuilt it found that is was a "demon" engine. The stories true or not are based on a sound theory.

Of course modern iron casting are subjected to heat treatment processes which are designed to speed up the age hardening and do away with weathering.

[StephenRae]

I can understand a block 'improving' wih age. I wonder if con rods and cranks which have had a relatively unstressed but long life in a road car would be the same, I have never had any trouble with them.
There is an old adage 'revs kills engines'...discuss.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Revracing
It is not as common nowadays but in the "old days" iron castings such as engine blocks were deliberately "weathered" for several years prior to machining for use. This was to allow the material to "age harden".

You're confusing two terms here. Cast iron was left to age, not to age harden - age hardening is a characteristic of aluminium alloys. The rate at which a casting cools is related to cross-sectional area, so thinner parts of the casting cool more quickly than thicker parts; this differential cooling tends to set up streses in the casting, which can lead to distortion when it is machined. 'Weathering' a casting subjects it to numerous thermal cycles over a long period, which relieves the casting stresses. BMW found that by using old blocks for their racing engines they were getting the same effect.

[Revracing]

Thanks for ironing out the details Dave, and it's nice to know that the stories are actually true for a change.

Now it's been a Very long time since I have considered the strength of Con Rods so please bear with me cos there are likely to be some errors (no change there then ).

If memory serves the loads excerted on the con rods are proportional to it's mass and the rpm, but the important bit is that the forces on the con rod go up by the fourth power in relation to the mass.

A heavy cast rod would have a much lower rev limit than a high strength fully machined from billet and lighter "after market" rod..

So it will come as no surprise that lightening and balancing of production rods help to raise revs.

Now i'm sketchy on this and I don't seem to be able to find anything in the reference material I have to hand but someone out there will know.

[Barny]

I have been told that the quality of the material used for crankshafts is very poor which is leading to premature failure, I seem to need a new c/s every second rebuild, is this line with what others experiance?

[kartingdad]

I dont see why a steel crank shouldn't be used, as they do in the states.

Not only will the engine be more reliable, but should save the necessity for new blocks, conrods, cams,etc.etc.

Although you would then in theory be able to use more revs, in practice the revs are governed by the vagaries of valve gear float.

So more expensive for a steel crank, but cost recouped very quickly I would think.

[jminsh]

Originally posted by kartingdad
I dont see why a steel crank shouldn't be used, as they do in the states.

Not only will the engine be more reliable, but should save the necessity for new blocks, conrods, cams,etc.etc.

Although you would then in theory be able to use more revs, in practice the revs are governed by the vagaries of valve gear float.

So more expensive for a steel crank, but cost recouped very quickly I would think.

What you mean you havn't got one already !! everyone else has in the NW, didn't Neil tell you !! LOL

[kartingdad]

Well, of course we have. We've also got a nice cam and a few other mods as well.

[GolddustMini]

but why would ford want you to use a steel crank that would last longer and not need replacing as often, thus making less money for them......

[kartingdad]

Exactly. Mind you as Ford have not put a single penny into the National Zetec series this year, perhaps we should tell them where to go and run it for the benefit of the paying customer (the driver) rather than a totally disinterested and uncommitted multinational company...

[GolddustMini]

they own the rights to the regs, if ya dont like the regs, go elsewhere, thats there thoughts i think...

[kartingdad]

Lots of people have already. Perhaps they should be a bit careful with their assets.

[diz]

Originally posted by kartingdad
Lots of people have already. Perhaps they should be a bit careful with their assets.

It's quite a good formula as a stepping stone though isn't it? Onwards and upwards and all that.

[kartingdad]

It's a fantastic formula.

Perhaps the Scholarship class at National level should incorporate FF1600's, although the costs wouldn't be much cheaper with an ancient engine design needing more maintenance than a zetec.

[StephenRae]

Rumour has it that a COMPLETE Toyota engine leaves the plant at Deeside at £600.
It would be one in the eye for Ford if a major manufacturer offered a modern engine with say 110 bhp which would be bulletproof, for say £800 complete...less than the cost of a rebuild.

[kartingdad]

Is that £600 with a receipt?