Standard of Marshalling

[mark_l]

I am saddened to see a marked reduction in marshalling standards this year.

I have seen a marshal smoking during a race, another one checking his phone. Marshals are failing to check the track between sessions.

There has also been inconsistent enforcing of the regulations.

Today at Donington Park the pit marshals were enforcing the no standing in the outside lane, during the podium ceremony with nothing on track and nothing in the pitlane, with ruthless pedantry. If you were standing on the yellow line then you were told to move further in, the same marshals then stood in the outside lane and watched the ceremony. The same marshals had failed to notice a driver who had removed his helmet before reaching parc ferme.

I don't think British marshals can claim to be the best in the world anymore.

[Greem]

Not being pedantic (although it sounds like it), but did you raise this with your post chief or the chief marshal on the day?

[mark_l]

I am a former marshal with 10 years experience, I was a grey/black specialist in pits/startline and red (fire marshal) grade.

I have attended dozens of meeting this year, and on the whole the standard of marshals is ok, but in my opinion there are too many marshals who are letting the side down.

I support the marshals and obey the marshals without question but I struggle to see how some marshals can justify the grade badge they hold.

[roys1]

Mark, is there anywhere in the blue book to say drivers can't remove gloves and helmet in the pit lane after the chequered flag... I know it's common sense and good practice but I can't find it in the rules..

[brickkicker]

Originally Posted by roys1

Mark, is there anywhere in the blue book to say drivers can't remove gloves and helmet in the pit lane after the chequered flag... I know it's common sense and good practice but I can't find it in the rules..

Yes, the rule which applies is in section Q10.

[Shelagh]

Mark is obviously an ex-marshal but appears to not understand the pressures that current marshals face.

I have smoked on post before now - well if you are flagging on your own for an endurance race, you can't go off post to do so, can you? If necessary the fag goes over the shoulder while you put out the flag as required.

Rather than criticising current standards, which reflect current numbers, Mark should either get back to marshalling or appreciate that everyone is doing the best they can in the circumstances.

I haven't been out on the bank for about 3 years now (thanks to the C) and I can be critical, but I am always amazed by how GOOD those orange/black bodies deal with stuff when I'm sitting on the sofa watching it on the TV.

[roys1]

Originally Posted by brickkicker

Yes, the rule which applies is in section Q10.

I sort of agree BUT once you are in the pit lane after the chequered flag you have ended your competition.. so helmet and gloves could be removed.
I have had clerks look at this one and you cannot penalise a driver for doing so..

[Johansen2000]

The only time I have ever seen a marshal using a phone during a race was to access the live timing from the internet to help work out who was where and who needed blue flagging, during a long race with pit stops this kind of helped!!

[m1fcf]

Originally Posted by Johansen2000

The only time I have ever seen a marshal using a phone during a race was to access the live timing from the internet to help work out who was where and who needed blue flagging, during a long race with pit stops this kind of helped!!

+1 on this, but only where I haven't been able to hear the commentary, or the positions have not been available from Race Control, either because they are busy with incidents or other things have meant the message hasnt gone out.

During the longer races where I have been PC on post, I have done this - but *only* I have done this. The rest of the team have been 'eyes on' to the racing at all times.

Whilst it could be frowned upon by some, I see it as part of my role to support my team. If the flaggy needs help identifying Race Leaders between Back Markers - I'll use whatever tools I have available to me to help him. By the same token, knowing what is going on helps the whole team to read the race.

In fact, if I could build the perfect Marshals Hut (this maybe the start of another thread here) - it would include a small screen showing car numbers and positions - not the whole Live Timing thing, but a simple display (like the big display on the hill at Brands between Post4 & Post7). Just enough to help us do our jobs more effectively, and allow us to be of greater assistance to faster cars coming through the traffic.

[Paul Newns]

At the risk of being controversial, I agree that some of the basics are being forgotten at times. Track inspections are not always carried out between sessions (which is down to the PC/IO, in my opinion); there is sometimes a reluctance to deal with incidents until a race has been neutralised; and marshals are not always concentrating, doing things like using mobiles or drinking/eating (and I don't mean in longer races). On the other hand, I have also witnessed excellent incident handling many times this season and would challenge marshals anywhere to do a better job.

Rather than be defensive (which is a natural reaction), perhaps we should just take the time to look at ourselves and think how we can do better.

[roys1]

I have also had confirmation that the driver concerned today for removing his helmet etc was noticed by at least 3 marshals/ officials including chief pits and that fact WAS reported to race control... obviously Mark you were not in receipt of the FULL facts.

[Slipstick]

The outsider will often not see what's actually happening. E.g. there may not be track inspections between sessions because we've been asked to keep things moving, the course cars aren't coming out and next race is out on its formation lap before the previous group are all back in parc ferme. Car dodging is not an essential part of a good track inspection....which is why it doesn't help if no-one remembers to tell us the last car to take the chequer as sometimes/often happens. Sometimes a marshal may have officially stood down to take a short break but have nowhere off post to go....I've been there. The uninformed observer will just see a marshal sitting down or having a smoke apparently while he's supposed to be working.

But let's face it we're all volunteers and none of us is perfect (at least I'm not and I hope it's not just me). We can improve. I've been guilty of sins like leaning on the armco and even having a quick cuppa during a race (if you call 5 cars circulating for 2 hours "a race"). I'll try to do better but I'm not expecting to achieve perfection any time soon.

Steve

[SouthportFC Fan]

Originally Posted by Paul Newns

At the risk of being controversial, I agree that some of the basics are being forgotten at times. Track inspections are not always carried out between sessions (which is down to the PC/IO, in my opinion); there is sometimes a reluctance to deal with incidents until a race has been neutralised; and marshals are not always concentrating, doing things like using mobiles or drinking/eating (and I don't mean in longer races). On the other hand, I have also witnessed excellent incident handling many times this season and would challenge marshals anywhere to do a better job.

Rather than be defensive (which is a natural reaction), perhaps we should just take the time to look at ourselves and think how we can do better.

I was just going to single out the track inspection bit Paul, but then thought about the rest of your post, hence the inclusion of all of your post as a quote.

Wrt track inspections, the major 'enemy' here is not trackside marshals' lack of enthusiasm(?) to do it, but the minimal time that's sometimes available between races. It's getting to be more common now for the course car not to come round if there are no reports to pick up or breakdown collections to be 'supervised'. This is usually because those in Race Control can see that the day's timetable is tight/optimistic, so any timesaving opportunity is grabbed. If there's no time for the course car, is there time for more than a quick look ? If your post is some way from the track itself, is there actually time to walk to the track, look and get back before the green flag ?

Dealing with incidents before the race is neutalised - depends on what it is and how big the object is. If a car breaks down and stops on circuit, if marshals don't have to cross the racing line to get to it, then it depends on how the other racers are behaving and if they're following the guidance given by the yellow flags. I was dealing with Touring car 48 in the gravel at Becketts last Saturday when car 39 spun and continued. No problem, 39 was a little way away (50 yards or so), but still not pleasant. If the 'incident' is a large piece of debris, then if it's not likely to be hit, it can stay there until the race is 'neutralised' if there is insufficient gaps between cars for it to be picked up. Again, distance from the post to the track is a factor here.

Eating/drinking - down to available time between sessions - see first point.

Solution - one is for race organisers to stop trying to squeeze one more race/session into each day to give everyone some wiggle room for stops/restarts/large numbers of pick ups/nouishment/thirst prevention/comfort breaks.

Another possible solution - more marshals on post so that stand downs can happen so that we can at least get one break during the day.

Which is the more easily achievable ?

[TerryD]

Thank you Roy! The matter of the driver removing his helmet was reported to the Clerks. I also went to race control to report this as he had removed his helmet, gloves & belts between coming off track and getting to garage 1. In doing so he nearly ran one of my pit marshals over who were doing their 'duty' in the pit lane.

[The Fat Clerk]

The one I see most often on Television is Marshals going to an Incident without a bottle.

[TerryD]

Originally Posted by mark_l

I am a former marshal with 10 years experience, I was a grey/black specialist in pits/startline and red (fire marshal) grade.

I have attended dozens of meeting this year, and on the whole the standard of marshals is ok, but in my opinion there are too many marshals who are letting the side down.

I support the marshals and obey the marshals without question but I struggle to see how some marshals can justify the grade badge they hold.

As you're such a badge watcher, then didn't you notice that most of the marshals in the pit lane were in fact trainees?

[SouthportFC Fan]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

The one I see most often on Television is Marshals going to an Incident without a bottle.

I always ask my teams during my briefing to ensure that an extinguisher is taken to each incident, but that it's OK if the car needs to be moved manually for it to be left in the vicinity, but to bring it back !! I also suggest that one person is responsible for taking it and bringing it back.

[The Fat Clerk]

That's what i do as well Steve.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

The one I see most often on Television is Marshals going to an Incident without a bottle.

The one I see, consistently, at meetings is appalling application of the SC flags. SC board and waved yellow flag should be displayed continuously, until a waved green is seen at adjacent post (or startline if applicable).

I have seen:-

1) Marshals stop waving the flag when there are no cars in the sector (I must confess myself to sometimes reducing it to a weak flap, but keep it waving)

2) When the SC is about to come in, but before waved green displayed at adjacent post, I've seen marshals (any of):-
a) Stop waving the yellow
b) Withdraw the yellow
c) Withdraw the SC board
d) Hold or even dangle the green flag.

3) After adjacent post displays waved green, I've seen marshals bring everything in, and just dangle the green flag, not waving it until the cars come around.

2 in particular seems, IME, to happen more often than not. How on earth is the next post along supposed to know what to display. Even using common sense and recognising slackness, how to you know the difference between 2d and 3 .... How do you know when to go green?

I have found myself still waving the yellow / SC board when the pack gets to me, because there's been no clear signal from the adjacent post. In those cases, I've just had to bite the bullet, and go off what I've heard on the scanner, and wave the green, to avoid causing confusion &/or wrecking the race.

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

2 in particular seems, IME, to happen more often than not. How on earth is the next post along supposed to know what to display. Even using common sense and recognising slackness, how to you know the difference between 2d and 3 .... How do you know when to go green?

Because much of the time I don't think posts are reacting to others - they do as they choose - including putting greens out to try and make a point that they're expecting a preceeding yellow to be displayed!

If a flag's meant to be waving(ed) FPS wave it - even leisurely when cars aren't around - but show the intended flag.

[Postie]

.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

Because much of the time I don't think posts are reacting to others - they do as they choose

Yeah, that's pretty much my point ... they *shouldn't* be doing as they choose, they should be displaying the correct flag for the SC procedure.

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

including putting greens out to try and make a point that they're expecting a preceeding yellow to be displayed!

For dealing with ordinary incidents, that's great. I've been helped out with something I've not seen on more than one occasion, including once when I was doing lights at the GP, by the next flaggie along displaying a green. Under SC, though, it's very confusing, and I don't know (save for listening to the scanner), what flag I should be displaying.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Postie

I assume I am probably wrong but I recall reading somewhere that you hold a stationary yellow with the sc board and then wave it as the train approaches/passes you then return to stationary...
Like I said I assume I'm wrong but can't find anything to the contrary

That was the case (during my first season, 5 years ago), but it changed. Yellow should be waved, constantly, during SC, until adjacent post waves a green.

Regulations are here: http://msauk.org/uploadedfiles/msa_f...ng_%28Q%29.pdf (Appendix 2) but you're right, they don't specifically mention *waved* yellows. However, someone will surely point out what is said about waved stripy flag being not entirely consistent wit what we do . The waving of yellows was covered in training and briefings, when the change came in.

[Alan Crook]

I actually agree that the standard of marshalling has dropped, whilst there is a lot of good marshalling still going on, things I have noticed in the past few seasons are :-

Marshals with their overall sleeves rolled up.
Marshals sitting down during races.
Marshals paying no attention to or facing oncoming traffic.
Poor dressing of oil (we are only trying to soak up the oil not build the Great Wall Of China).
Track marshals not wearing gloves during sessions.
Smoking / eating / drinking during sessions either straight after a break or during a short session.

Lots of the basics of marshalling needs to be re-introduced and more on post training / guidance to stop these poor habits becoming the norm.

[colincragg]

Originally Posted by SouthportFC Fan

I always ask my teams during my briefing to ensure that an extinguisher is taken to each incident, but that it's OK if the car needs to be moved manually for it to be left in the vicinity, but to bring it back !! I also suggest that one person is responsible for taking it and bringing it back.

As a post chief and also like the Fat Clerk I do the same. But in the use of a mobile phone during racing I am often asked at my briefings that a marshal is on call at work and may have to use their phones during the day, I usually say in this instant for them to move away from the post to take any such call.