“The Sky Is Falling”

[GTRMagic]

Article Here

Another missal, appropriately perhaps released on Christmas Day, from a group with no skin in the game yet with a wide and loud microphone..

There are 24 cars committed to operate at 12 rounds of the 2024 Repco V8Supercar series across Bathurst, Sandown, Adelaide, New Zealand and the rest.

Everything else right now seems to just be hyperbole… or somebody’s wishful thinking…

Easier to criticise than to build.

[GreenMachine]

Clickbait topic title much?

There is a thread on here discussing that very subject, so it is hardly news.

I had to laugh at this though: millions of dollars have been invested in developing the Camaro for racing in Supercars and scrapping them is simply not an option. makes it seem that we are talking about actual cars, not a spaceframe chassis with plastic body panels!

Pretty obviously, the answer is to either do a completely spec chassis/power/drivetrain and anyone can drop a body on it, or go down a proper GT3/4 type homologation route for 'production' cars. The 'parity' formula has been a failure, and will continue to be a source of complaint. A homologation formula has a much better chance of getting a wider variety of manufacturers involved with 'real' cars.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Article Here

Another missal, appropriately perhaps released on Christmas Day, from a group with no skin in the game yet with a wide and loud microphone..

There are 24 cars committed to operate at 12 rounds of the 2024 Repco V8Supercar series across Bathurst, Sandown, Adelaide, New Zealand and the rest.

Everything else right now seems to just be hyperbole… or somebody’s wishful thinking…

Easier to criticise than to build.

Easier to stick your head in the sand and do zero planning for when changes are forced on the series by industry changes that you know are coming.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Casper

Easier to stick your head in the sand and do zero planning for when changes are forced on the series by industry changes that you know are coming.

What do the Car Sales mob suggest is the way forward?

Nothing, only that V8Supercar is doomed.
And go a’hunting for some folks to point fingers at.

Most of the issue is the world had no idea what V8Supercar was up to during the homologation process for new cars, manufacturer talks, car specs and the like.

The new owners have been smashed for that about a billion times so far.

When there are only 2 girls going to a dance you are running, and plenty of people feigning interest to get a look see as to what’s going on, the logical answer is to dance with the girls that showed up.

And work on brands #3, #4 and #5… with an allocated, dedicated group of resources.

Or just let it all collapse. It’s only a couple of thousand people’s jobs. Investments of a couple of hundred million dollars rendered worthless. Overnight. Not much when you say it quickly I suppose.

And we can run the spectacularly successful (sic) TCR program that runs more brands of all the cars Joe Spectator allegedly buys, yet not more manufacturers than V8Supercars.. instead drivers are key as their cheque books keep the customer racing thing going.

Is RACE the wrong parent for V8Supercars?
Probably

Is anyone else stepping up with a different plan, a different way forward?
Nope

Be careful of what you wish for..

[V8 Fireworks]

Quite simply: it makes absolutely no sense for the Australian Touring Car Championship to be an Americana series.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Quite simply: it makes absolutely no sense for the Australian Touring Car Championship to be an Americana series.

Why?
There is no Australian car industry.
If you go back to the Improved Production days pre 73 it was mainly Mustang v Camaro at the front with the occasional interloper and class competitor.

[Casper]

We can refuse to acknowledge the facts but the reality is sedans are an endangered species and the availability of sedans in the industry is reducing fast and the availability of sedans/coupes + V8 + ICE will end in the next decade but more likely in the next 5 years due to planning lead times needed for the industry. I don't care if you can't accept those facts, that's up to you but it won't change them. Let me know what you think GTR, what cars will be available after 2035.

[FIRE]

GT3 is still going strong so in the premium range of cars there's still interest in racing.


In Brazil SUVs are the future. Also in Argentina one of the series switches to SUVs.

[bathurst77]

Thing is Touring car and supercar racing was always about "Hi performance cars based on affordable family cars" Usually rwd petrol atmo 6 or v8. ITs gone from series production decades ago through various "modified" versions to todays purpose built space frame "tribute to" cars

However the last suitable "affordable rwd performance car was stinger. The fancy euro cars race in various GT/Le Mans series. And the fwd hot hatches have their own series. Theres nothing really left to race. Bith the top and bottom of the market are racing elsewhere and the middle ground has disappeared..
Im not interested in a hilux vs a ranger or escape vs prado nor in tesla vs some other EV.

Maybe current g3 cars with tribute to 70s aussie cars fibreglass panel. pretend xb coupe vs pretend torana vs pretend charger (talking outa my bum now)

I think the writer is right in that people should be planning for 5 to 10 years away. ITs not that the sky is falling - right now its doing OK - could do better. But they havent indicated that they are looking at the horizon and if I was to start a multimillion dollar operation I would want to know that they are.
Who knows what private discussions are happening tho.

I will say tho going by the typos, mangled grammar and syntax I suspect he hit the bottle before the keyboard.

[Henry]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Article Here

Another missal, appropriately perhaps released on Christmas Day, from a group with no skin in the game yet with a wide and loud microphone..

There are 24 cars committed to operate at 12 rounds of the 2024 Repco V8Supercar series across Bathurst, Sandown, Adelaide, New Zealand and the rest.

Everything else right now seems to just be hyperbole… or somebody’s wishful thinking…

Easier to criticise than to build.

Skin in the game isn't a prerequisite for an opinion, and it states clearly that the article is an opinion piece. In actuality, one might often feel that too much of the media generated around Supercars comes from people with skin in the game.

While the article reads like Mr Ottley nodded off a few times whilst typing, and didn't bother reading where he'd finished when he woke, there's a fair bit of what he put in there that isn't wrong. SVG got a *******ing from Skaife. Skaife has a fair bit of skin in the game, not the least of which is his continental plate-sized ego. Ford as a corporate motorsport entity weren't at all amused, and given that they at least put some skin into the game (which GM don't seem to have), they could be forgiven for having a major case of the irrits over being pooh-poohed for four-fifths of the season.

Admittedly, most of the rest of the article is about as exciting as the 2023 Supercars Championship.

Actually, that's bullshit, it wasn't a bad season in many ways. New faces up the pointy end, some good races, a Bathurst result that wasn't contrived by a series of safety cars and two-lap sprints for the last hour (I chuckled at the mumblings that it was a bit of an anticlimax, with the winner being so far in front... wonder what the murmurrers would've thought of Group C Bathursts where it was pretty much over by lunchtime...)

However, I did think it was playing for cheap points when they set up one Bathurst run for one car to touch 300 klicks, so they could justify harping on about that "magic" number for the rest of the weekend, even though getting within five or ten klicks of it was a technical impossibility. If I was still a drinker, I'd have made my Bathurst drinking game a shot every time Neil or Skaife said "83 metres per second". I'd probably have been dead by lap 5 though. And the magic number is 83 and a third m/s anyway.

It'd be great if Roy and HG would commentate it, so we could flick on the tv with the volume muted, and listen to them instead of the State- er, Category-endorsed party line...

The category itself? **** it off. GT4 is quick enough, with a good mix of exotic and aspirational, and market-relevant.

If it was all about what people actually drive, we'd be far more interested in those weird-arse SuperUte bitsas that seem to be the cue for everybody to head for the dunnies or line up for food and drink.

[Adam43]

Posts and baiting posts that aren’t really about supercars removed.

/mod

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Alan52

Why?
There is no Australian car industry.
If you go back to the Improved Production days pre 73 it was mainly Mustang v Camaro at the front with the occasional interloper and class competitor.

Sure, but by the 1980's it became fantastic: you had Mazda, you had Volvo, you had Jaguar, you had Nissan, you had BMW, you had Toyota, you had Mitsubishi you had Alfa Romeo... It was wonderful!

Besides, the class entries of the likes of the Datsun Racing Team in Improved Production Bathurst 500 shouldn't be dismissed.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Posts and baiting posts that aren’t really about supercars removed.

/mod

But the posts were relevant to supercars, if european emission standards are implemented in australia then there may not be anything resembling today's supercars to watch.

[Adam43]

They started off vaguely relevant, but then you took it in a direction that was wasn’t. And in a manner that was either designed to be disruptive or just plain ridiculous.

Move on now. The most ridiculous posts are removed, we don’t need to discuss this anymore.

You comment above will do for bringing in your point for discussion. Hopefully it doesn’t turn it into the Twitter type discussion again.

/mod

[GreenMachine]

Originally Posted by bluesport

... if european emission standards are implemented in australia then there may not be anything resembling today's supercars to watch.

Your point is wrong. If we adopt european emissions we can/will get what is produced to meet european standards - if there are no supercars produced in europe we won't get them (duh), If they are produced, we might/can get them. In this scenario, we are in lockstep with europe.

Only if we adopt tougher emissions standards will there be an issue - the racing cars may get a pass (off-road use), but their production counterparts may not be able to be sold here, impacting manufacturer interest.

You also are delusional in thinking of the current cars as 'supercars'. They are tube frame, largely spec racecars, bearing a passing resemblance to certain production cars.

However that fact offers some future opportunities, but multi-manufacturer support is probably not one of them. The GT3/4 model is effectively the inverse of those opportunities/limitations.

If we/you want big V8s, there is only one way forward - the tube-frame model, moving further away from contemporary production cars as time goes by. I don't see a problem here, they will be so irrelevant to what people are buying/driving that the manufacturers may not be concerned with 'replicars', certainly there will be enough unconcerned, or concerned enough to only require licensing of the design IP, to provide some variety. After all, it not like we have an overload of variety now ....

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by GreenMachine

Your point is wrong. If we adopt european emissions we can/will get what is produced to meet european standards - if there are no supercars produced in europe we won't get them (duh), If they are produced, we might/can get them. In this scenario, we are in lockstep with europe.

Only if we adopt tougher emissions standards will there be an issue - the racing cars may get a pass (off-road use), but their production counterparts may not be able to be sold here, impacting manufacturer interest.

You also are delusional in thinking of the current cars as 'supercars'. They are tube frame, largely spec racecars, bearing a passing resemblance to certain production cars.

However that fact offers some future opportunities, but multi-manufacturer support is probably not one of them. The GT3/4 model is effectively the inverse of those opportunities/limitations.

If we/you want big V8s, there is only one way forward - the tube-frame model, moving further away from contemporary production cars as time goes by. I don't see a problem here, they will be so irrelevant to what people are buying/driving that the manufacturers may not be concerned with 'replicars', certainly there will be enough unconcerned, or concerned enough to only require licensing of the design IP, to provide some variety. After all, it not like we have an overload of variety now ....

Mate I'm not making any points, simply asking if the european emission standards are adopted in australia will it have an adverse impact on the SUPERCARS category?

[GreenMachine]

Why would it? We don't run euro cars here, our tube frame cars are market/emissions independent. We don't need production euro engines under a tube frame scenario, we can use whichever engine(s) we like.

So why ask the question? Don't be shy, you can tell me what is troubling you, spell it out for me.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by GreenMachine

Why would it? We don't run euro cars here, our tube frame cars are market/emissions independent. We don't need production euro engines under a tube frame scenario, we can use whichever engine(s) we like.

So why ask the question? Don't be shy, you can tell me what is troubling you, spell it out for me.

If australia adopts european emission standards then cars such as the mustang and whatever chev that T8 might want to develop may not be able to be sold here so would there be any point in them being raced in the ATCC and Bathurst 1000?

[GreenMachine]

Originally Posted by bluesport

If australia adopts european emission standards then cars such as the mustang and whatever chev that T8 might want to develop may not be able to be sold here so would there be any point in them being raced in the ATCC and Bathurst 1000?

Originally Posted by GreenMachine

Why would it? We don't run euro cars here, our tube frame cars are market/emissions independent. We don't need production euro engines under a tube frame scenario, we can use whichever engine(s) we like.

So why ask the question? Don't be shy, you can tell me what is troubling you, spell it out for me.

We don't need production cars, we aren't using production cars, so Supercars is free and clear and can select whatever mechanical package they like, because they aren't buying out of a showroom.

It seems you are still fantasising about a 'road-relevant' category, where there is some magical relationship between Supercars on-track and what I can buy in the showroom. I get you think that this might attract some interest from manufacturers - but it seems not if the evidence on-track is any indication.

But if you want that Supercars have to throw the whole show in reverse, and actually revert to ATCC regs from the '70s. Not going to happen, because those 'pony' cars are verging on extinct. OTOH limited production GT cars may linger for longer, meaning GT3/4 style regs could have high HP (?) production racing cars maybe to the end of this decade.

If you want the v8 cars experience, the tube frame is the way to go, and as you talk about ATCC lets have some 70s panels - Mustang, Camaro, Javelin, Falcon GT, Monaro ... Need some skinny rubber (<15in of course) so they ape the over-powered, under-tyred cars of the era, maybe spec drum brakes too, on the rear at least! I can see some excitement in those as they try and stop in the Chase, or accelerate up Mountain Straight.

[Goat Boy]

I hate to sound like an old fart (which I unashamedly am), but IMO there has never been a more interesting time in Aussie touring car racing than back in the Group A days. Why not go to a modified set of Group A rules? Who cares about parity, if you want parity then have a one-make, all parts standard series (yawn). I'd much rather see something which is on sale today, whatever shape or size, competing under class rules with a large and very varied grid, like back in the 80's when we used to get overseas teams bringing their cars in to race in the James Hardie 1000.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

I hate to sound like an old fart (which I unashamedly am), but IMO there has never been a more interesting time in Aussie touring car racing than back in the Group A days. Why not go to a modified set of Group A rules? Who cares about parity, if you want parity then have a one-make, all parts standard series (yawn). I'd much rather see something which is on sale today, whatever shape or size, competing under class rules with a large and very varied grid, like back in the 80's when we used to get overseas teams bringing their cars in to race in the James Hardie 1000.

I loved the Group A era, maybe GT4 could provide the variety you desire?

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by bluesport

I loved the Group A era, maybe GT4 could provide the variety you desire?

What I'd like to see is four door sedans that you can actually buy new from a dealer in Aus and NZ.

No restrictions on engine size or turbos as long as it is based on a production model.

Allow certain modifications to engine and exhaust, brakes, wider slick tyres and limited controlled aero, and use the standard fuel tank size. Allow strengthened powertrains and of course make the interiors race car spec.

Ban remote telemetry and any adjustment of turbo pressures or engine management other than a standard.

Have four classes so you can race your Corolla or your V8 AMG Mercedes or Alfa Giulia, etc.

Class would be based on power output range plus kerb weight, etc.

Which I guess is what Group A was more or less.

[HDTVKSS]

Id love to see GT4 back. won happen though as the investors would lose their IP value, as well as a perceived second fiddle scenario with GT3 which wouldn't likely fly.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

What I'd like to see is four door sedans that you can actually buy new from a dealer in Aus and NZ.

You're literally looking for an endangered species, nobody is selling sedans anymore.

I think Brazil has a cool series which is going to adopt some small SUVs that might be the right idea but it's still really based around TCR so slow.... Doesn't sound good, boring.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Mixer

You're literally looking for an endangered species, nobody is selling sedans anymore.

I think Brazil has a cool series which is going to adopt some small SUVs that might be the right idea but it's still really based around TCR so slow.... Doesn't sound good, boring.

Hmmm, sorry to disagree but there is a huge range of sedans available and a good number are still sold. The idea of SUV racing is just yuck. Although you could include wagons in the mix so you get your Audi RS6's and the like.

Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, Volswagen, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Alfa Romeo, Mazda, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Hyundai, Kia, Peugeot, Renault, Volvo, Skoda, Seat, Suzuki - all sell a range of 4 door saloon cars. Plenty of scope for variety and entertainment.