John (Turner) Miles.Exit Monoco.

[Eric Falce]

Many years ago in the mid sixtys,I used to race against a chap called John Miles.There where two John miles at the time,one drove a Diva and the other a Turner,hence Diva Miles and Turner miles.
At Silverstone a couple of weeks ago,I was talking to another racer who has purchsed the Turner,got me thinking,if turner Miles has straight legs now and can avoid going between lamp posts and walls,would he like to have a go in my Escort,see if he still has that something that made us all think he would be the next Jimmy Clark.

[Andrew Kitson]

Would that be the same John Miles of Lotus fame?
Try contacting 'Miles Music' in Dereham Norfolk.

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
Would that be the same John Miles of Lotus fame?
Try contacting 'Miles Music' in Dereham Norfolk.

I could be getting the wrong end of the stick here, but I think he is asking about 'Turner Miles', whereas the John Miles who went on to drive for Lotus was 'Diva Miles' as he did indeed drive a Diva early in his career...

[Eric Falce]

Thanks for the info Andrew,have e mailed John to see which one he is.
Yes ,it may seem strange ,we had two John Miles racing in the same class at the same time.Turner Miles always managed a better start than us and would'nt let Diva Miles or me pass!
Diva Miles went on to drive a semi works Lotus Elan for Willment Racing,then moved on up the ladder to Lotus,he was infamous for being invisible in restaraunts,never being able to get served even in his fathers restaraunt at the 'Mermaid'.
Eric Falce

[Turner Sports]

'Turner' Miles was John E Miles who raced a Turner (Originally BMC - Later Ford) with great success - Reg VUD 701 (Also raced / Owned by Mike Lawlor)
As registrar for Turner Sports Cars I would very much like to make contact - Can anyone put me in touch?
Here is a much later picture of the same car in the hands of Tony Dunderdale (70's)

[Eric Falce]

Managed to contact John Diva Miles ok,maybe if someone comes up with an address for Mike Lawlor we can make contact that way!

[Turner Sports]

I have had no luck to date , But will let you know if I have any success.

[Eric Falce]

How did they make that thing go so fast,sure,John we all thought would be along the same lines as Jimmy Clark,but I was pulling nearly max revs in my E type down the old Norwich straight at snetterton and he kept the Turner in front pulling,he said,over 8000,in 1964!

[Turner Sports]

VUD 701 Was a race prepared Turner MKII Shared by John E Miles and Mike Lawlor originally supplied as a BMC. They raced it for about 6 months with the BMC but found it difficault to keep up with the Ford engined Diva's and Marcos's so in the middle of the 1963 season Miles and Lawlor changed in favor of a Ford 1650cc Engine, (1500cc Cortina engine bored out 4mm to give the 1650cc , Cosworth cylinder head, camshaft,and manifolding and fitted up with 40 DCOE Weber carbs. They never had the engine on a brake but it was estimated to be giving 120 - 125 bhp.

The Gearbox was an Elan CR Unit , Rear Axel 4.2 BMC ZF Ltd Slip, uprated roll bar 5 1/2" wide wheels with 5.50 tyres all round.
The car had a lightweight Motorcrafts Body

As far as the performance was concerned - John E Miles raced the car with the Ford engine 17 times and won 15 of them - The other two he broke down when in the lead , Of these races half were outright wins.
List of lap times follow : (** Denotes Class Lap Record at the time in 1963)

** Brands Hatch Club 59.2 Secs
** Brands Hatch G.P 1min 57 Secs
Goodwood 1 Min 35.8 Secs
** Silverstone Club 1 min 9.6 Secs
** Mallory Park 57.4 Secs
** Snetterton 1.49 Secs

The car went on to be raced with Greeat success right through the 60's 70's and early 80's by Johnny Blades, Geoff Daryn, Tony Dunderdale , Lee Barton, Mark Hales and others.

[Steve66]

I saw this Turner Sports car at the Crystal Palace event the other week driven by Chris Fulke Greville and it came second beating the beautiful and mighty HWM Chevrolet of Simon Taylor.It certainly thrilled the crowds with its tail hanging out on all the corners and where I was standing it went throu the finishing line almost sideways because of its power.
I remember seeing this racing Turner years ago at various circuits in the 1970s and 1980s driven by various drivers who all did well by winning the races.The thing I love about this car is its rawness,its there to do a job and not be a concours car as many are today.

[Alan Brown]

Originally Posted by Steve66

I saw this Turner Sports car at the Crystal Palace event the other week driven by Chris Fulke Greville and it came second beating the beautiful and mighty HWM Chevrolet of Simon Taylor.It certainly thrilled the crowds with its tail hanging out on all the corners and where I was standing it went throu the finishing line almost sideways because of its power.
I remember seeing this racing Turner years ago at various circuits in the 1970s and 1980s driven by various drivers who all did well by winning the races.The thing I love about this car is its rawness,its there to do a job and not be a concours car as many are today.

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C124204/

Is it really the ex-Miles car?

[Derwent Motorsp]

£125K !!!!!!!!!! seems a lot. A famous car but where would you race it? I doubt if you would get invites to Goodwood or Le Mans etc as its so modded.
I assume this is not the famous "tatty Turner"?

[Steve66]

£125,000 seems a lot of money but how much would you pay for some of the Ex works Fords like the Escorts,at least £145,000,this racing Turner VUD 701 has so much racing history from 1962/3 right up to the present day,it makes your mouth water to think that this legendry race car is still being used most weekends and is 50 years old.
VUD 701 has always been the fastest Turner Sports Car and much quicker than Tatty Turner ever was.John E Miles in this Turner race car VUD 701 use to trounce so many of the works cars winning outright the 1963/4 Autosport National Veedol Sports and Saloon Car Championship,and held so many class lap records and overall wins.Many of the owner drivers of this legendry Turner VUD 701 went on to win many National Championships overall,drivers included John E Miles,Mike Lawlor,John Lawlor,Jeff Daryn,Tony Dunderdale,Mark Hales,Tony Broome (Twice),John Moore,Chris Fulke-Greville.
When you see this VUD 701 Turner at the various car shows there is always a huge crowd around it,they love the rivets,polished alloy and battle scarred bodywork,no concours here just an awesome little British race car made to do a job of racing.
Goodwood is not the be-all and end-all of motorsport events,althou a great event it does not cater for period cars that have been modified throuout the last 50 years to compete with the more modern race machinery,poor old VUD 701 has to fight it out with the awesome Radicals and bike engined race cars,and thats bloody hard work.
This racing Turner VUD 701 was at Crystal Palace 2010 and managed to beat the awesome and beautiful HWM 6 Litr Chevrolet 'Stovebolt Special' of Simon Taylor.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Steve66

£125,000 seems a lot of money......
VUD 701 was at Crystal Palace 2010 and managed to beat the awesome and beautiful HWM 6 Litr Chevrolet 'Stovebolt Special' of Simon Taylor.

not wishing to play down the achievement but my son beat Simon Taylor on the Monday in a bog-standard MG ZS180 - and was within 0.2 secs of the Turner. Most people seemed to be doing parade runs....

[Lee Barton]

Originally Posted by Derwent Motorsp

£125K !!!!!!!!!! seems a lot. A famous car but where would you race it? I doubt if you would get invites to Goodwood or Le Mans etc as its so modded.
I assume this is not the famous "tatty Turner"?

HI.

VUD701 WASN'T THE 'TATTY TURNER', BUT A VERY SUCCESSFUL CAR TOO. IT HAD THE 1500 PRE-CROSSFLOW ENGINE (NOT THE ONE SUBSTITUTED FROM THE BMC) WITH COSWORTH CRANK AND PISTONS, LES RYDER HEAD, A8 CAM AND REVVED TO AROUND 8500RPM AND GAVE ME 167BHP AT THE FLYWHEEL.

I WON THE 1978 BRSCC MODSPORTS CLASS C AND WENT ON TO LOTS OF OTHER GREAT CHAMPIONSHIPS. I AM NOW RETIRED IN FRANCE, BUT STILL ACTIVE AND DO TRACK DAYS AND AM VERY LUCKY TO BE PAID TO SET UP FELLOW RACERS CARS AT ONE OF THE BEST LITTLE TRACKS IN THE WORLD AT CROIX EN TERNOIS (ST POL, NORD PAS DE CALAIS). OWNED BY A FANATIC WITH AN OLD BENETTON F1 CAR.

IT WAS NICE TO READ THAT THE OLD CAR STILL TURNS HEADS AND HAS STILL GOT IT! THE PRICE ASTOUNDS ME, BUT I SUPPOSE THAT'S LIFE AND INFLATION!
LEE BARTON

I SOLD THE CAR TO A RACING CAR DEALER IN DERBY FOR £1500 IN 1986.

[Lee Barton]

Originally Posted by Turner Sports

VUD 701 Was a race prepared Turner MKII Shared by John E Miles and Mike Lawlor originally supplied as a BMC. They raced it for about 6 months with the BMC but found it difficault to keep up with the Ford engined Diva's and Marcos's so in the middle of the 1963 season Miles and Lawlor changed in favor of a Ford 1650cc Engine, (1500cc Cortina engine bored out 4mm to give the 1650cc , Cosworth cylinder head, camshaft,and manifolding and fitted up with 40 DCOE Weber carbs. They never had the engine on a brake but it was estimated to be giving 120 - 125 bhp.

The Gearbox was an Elan CR Unit , Rear Axel 4.2 BMC ZF Ltd Slip, uprated roll bar 5 1/2" wide wheels with 5.50 tyres all round.
The car had a lightweight Motorcrafts Body

As far as the performance was concerned - John E Miles raced the car with the Ford engine 17 times and won 15 of them - The other two he broke down when in the lead , Of these races half were outright wins.
List of lap times follow : (** Denotes Class Lap Record at the time in 1963)

** Brands Hatch Club 59.2 Secs
** Brands Hatch G.P 1min 57 Secs
Goodwood 1 Min 35.8 Secs
** Silverstone Club 1 min 9.6 Secs
** Mallory Park 57.4 Secs
** Snetterton 1.49 Secs

The car went on to be raced with Greeat success right through the 60's 70's and early 80's by Johnny Blades, Geoff Daryn, Tony Dunderdale , Lee Barton, Mark Hales and others.

VUD701 WAS SUBSEQUENTLY FITTED WITH A FORD 1500CC (UNBORED) WITH COSWORTH CRANK AND PISTONS, LES RYDER HEAD, A8 CAM AND OTHER BITS TO MAKE 167BHP AT THE FLYWHEEL. IT HAD THE LAP RECORD AT SILVERSTONE CLUB OF 64SECS AND MALLORY AT 53.2. IT REGULARLY BEAT PORCHES, E-TYPES AND OTHERS, BUT HAD DIFFICULTIES WITH ELANS WITH MEGA 2 LITRE ENGINES, SUCH AS JOHN FYDA'S, JO LANNY ETC.

THE CAR NOW HAS A VERY DIFFERENT AND MODERN UNIT GIVING MUCH MORE BHP.

LEE BARTON

[Lee Barton]

Originally Posted by Eric Falce

Many years ago in the mid sixtys,I used to race against a chap called John Miles.There where two John miles at the time,one drove a Diva and the other a Turner,hence Diva Miles and Turner miles.
At Silverstone a couple of weeks ago,I was talking to another racer who has purchsed the Turner,got me thinking,if turner Miles has straight legs now and can avoid going between lamp posts and walls,would he like to have a go in my Escort,see if he still has that something that made us all think he would be the next Jimmy Clark.

HI ERIC

MY OLD TURNER IS STILL GOING VERY STRONG AND IS FOR SALE, UNFORTUNATELY NOT BY ME!

I DROVE IT FROM 1978 UNTIL 1986 WHEN IT WAS SOLD AND I WENT ON TO TIN TOPS. I AM RETIRED NOW BUT STILL ACTIVE AND SET UP CARS FOR FRIENDS AT OUR LOCAL TRACK IN FRANCE, WHERE I NOW LIVE.

AM HAPPY TO 'HAVE A GO' IN YOUR ESCORT. MY LATEST FUN DAYS ARE IN LEGENDS AND THE SIDEWAYS ASPECT IS FANTASTIC FUN. AM ALSO SETTING UP PORSCHES AND OTHER GREAT CARS.

REGARDS, LEE BARTON

[Charlieh]

It appears most contributors here are/were esteemed drivers. Well, I'm just a fan who can't believe his luck to find the information about this particular memorable Turner. I was explaining to a family member how, in 1968, I puchased a new Lambretta SX200 from Geoff Daryn's motor cycle dealers in Sandwich and a year later Geoff found, and sold to me, my first car, a 1962 Austin 7 Mini (591FN). It was common practice, on a Saturday morning, to ride/drive over to Strand Street and "browse" the latest bikes in stock!

I was saying, how, on Sundays, we would go over to Lydden and watch Geoff (and later, I think, Tony) driving so superbly, this wonderful Turner which he owned at the time. It seemed to drive so quickly, yet smoothly and quietly! I guess it would have had the bored out 1650cc Ford engine and twin 45DCOE's at the time.
It has really made my day to find the car is still alive and kicking. I hope the same is true of Geoff (does anyone know?). Thanks for the memories!

[Charlieh]

Sorry, wrong Weber; I meant 40s!

[dunders]

Hello
just came across your memories of Geoff Daryn/Turner. Geoff is still alive & still living at 66 Srand St. which was the Shop, but has been converted back to a Cottage as it was prior to evolving into The Shop,office & stores etc.Unfortunately Geoff who I Keep in touch with,is now in his eighties & suffers from dementia & is no longer in touch with the world. I have & still run my own motor cycle shop in Faversham since I left Daryns in 1976. I now own,another Turner,a normal one for the road,I still have fond memories of that period,Geoff, The Shop,The Turner VUD 701 & Lydden.
Regards Tony.

[Lee Barton]

Originally Posted by Eric Falce

How did they make that thing go so fast,sure,John we all thought would be along the same lines as Jimmy Clark,but I was pulling nearly max revs in my E type down the old Norwich straight at snetterton and he kept the Turner in front pulling,he said,over 8000,in 1964!

Hi Eric

When I had VUD701 I was pulling about 8500 revs (only as a temporary measure and only on very long straights!). With the A8 cam, there was nothing below about 5000 revs, but very brisk power through up to 7500-8000. The car weighed in at around 1100lbs, so the power to weight ratio was quite decent. I used to have F1 front slicks all round and was lucky enough to bag slightly used qualifying tyres from Hesketh race team for £5 each. They allowed me to race, as I had difficulty afffording it otherwise.

[Clive Brown]

I seem to recall that years ago, there was a successful Modsports car commonly known as the "Tatty Turner". Was that the same car?

[Andy Turnock]

Tatty Turner never ran in modsports,most of its race life was in the early sixties,i think it still holds a class record at Goodwood.It disappeared for several decades parked in a barn.It was totally rebuilt a few years ago and has latterly been run in HSCC races,unfortunately its period modifications rule it out of most of the race series,its currently being run against much more powerful machinery although its Coventry Clamax 1220 engine sounds suburb on its open exhaust.

[Andy Turnock]

It appears that i can't spell in the early hours of the morning should read:
Coventry Climax 1220 engine sounds supurb with its open exhaust.

Its suprising that Chris Fulke Greville has not offered any contribution to the thread.Has the car moved out of his ownership?Not seen any advert for it a while.He can be seen here at a Turner Rally in Wolverhampton a couple of years ago speaking enthusiasticly about the car.

[Steve66]

I see an investment company has just purchased this racing Turner VUD 701.
The new owners paid £115k for the car,only a weeks salary to these banker types,and already the Turner has been repainted in its original deep black,the chassis has been powdercoated,engine rebuilt and every nut and bolt looks polished.