How Schuey works...

[angst]

Just reading an interview with Johnny Herbert, and he was aksed about whether he believes he got the break he deserved in F1. He said that he almost had it in '95, but....
"Then it changed in Argentina. I remember Michael talking to me after the Thursday, when I was a thousandth quicker than him. Walking back to the car, he said 'Oh Johnny, I've spoken to Ross and our styles are slightly different. I'm sure there's things that you do different that you don't want me to see and there's things I do different that I don't want you to see.'
He didn't say what he meant, but the next day Ross told me that Flavo had said I couldn't see Michael's data but he could look at mine."
No wonder he dominates his teammates so much.

[LYM]

Isn't he a smart ass!!! TGF should work for the FBI.

I cannot imagine Johnny blaming TGF for his career setbacks. That was not a serious remark.

[neutral]

This is just ridiculous. Its amazing how far a man will go just to bolster their own career. Fact is that Johnny is looking for a seat quickly, and any insinuations that he once outpaced Michael could help his cause. If one thinks of his comment from a rational point of view, they will realise its flaws. First of all Flavio's job is to help the team score points and this means setting up both cars to their maximum potential. There is no incentive for him to do otherwise. Secondly, why would Michael hint to Johnny that he was getting the short end of the stick. Surely, if such an agreement did happen Michael of all people would be the one wanting to keep things quiet. I could continue but it is just too obvious. If Johnny did say these things, then I have lost all respect I once held of him. Maybe if he spent more time driving and less time making excuses, he would still be driving F1.

[Maisie]

This isn't some new excuse by Johnny or some new way of furthering his career. I first heard this story a long, long time ago.

[jarama]

I agree with Maisie, this isn't a new story. I read it a long time ago.

[angst]

First of all Flavio's job is to help the team score points and this means setting up both cars to their maximum potential. There is no incentive for him to do otherwise.

He's done a good job this year then. Johnny went on to point out that he couldn't understand this attitude as it didn't hep Benetton score points. Why is it that anything said that could be construed as derogatory against TGF immediately puts the 'culprit' into the bracket of liar/whinger? Of all people for this to come from, Johhny Herbert has to be one of the most honest people in F1 and he wasn't using it as an excuse for his lack of success in F1 (his ankles/feet played a much bigger role there) just querying the decisions made by Benetton at that time.
If you chose to ignore evidence that puts TGF in anything but a Godly light then fair enough, but to suggest that an honest man is lying to serve his own purpose (which is obviously something TGF would never do) is to blind yourself to the truth of the matter. TGF's career cannot be taken at face value, his place in the realms of 'great' drivers is flawed by a number of anomalies. The fact that the teams he has tasted success with have been totally and completely built around him to the extent that he calls the shots within the team. Things like witholding set-up info from your teammate, while you have full access to theirs will obviously give you an advantage, so we cannot judge him properly against his teammates.
Also his first championship year is still clouded in controversy as far as the legality of the car he was driving. It is widely known that Senna believed the car to have some sort of traction control (despite it being banned) and the stewards found what they described as 'launch control' on the car which had been 'hidden' from the FIA - for which I believe there was never any satisfactory explanation. There is no doubt he is fast, but I question whether he is quite as good as his reputation would dictate. A season in CART might bring the answers to that....

[chow wei hsien]

I dunno whether to believe Johnny's word or not. OK, I agree that Schumi always get the better treatment in the team,

but for Schumi to say ,"'Oh Johnny, I've spoken to Ross and our styles are slightly different. I'm sure there's things that you do different that you don't want me to see and there's things I do different that I don't want you to see.' ,is very hard to believe. Even if he is selfish, i don't think he would say such stupid thing, which I really think sound so childish.

I believe that Johnny did hint or complain about the treatment he gets, but the words are changed by some stupid journalist. Funny thing is, why didn't Schummi say something about the comment of Johnny then. And why didn't the same journalist that report the comment of Johnny ask Schummi whether it is true, since journalist are someone who dares to be irritating and ask stupid questions to the driver.

Anyway, if I am Ross Brawn or Flavio Briatore, I would rather please MS than Johnny if that is what Schumi wants. Can you imagine Schumi getting angry and walk out from your team? There are dozens of teams out there waiting for an opportunity to get him

[Valentinik]

I have read the F1 racing interview and have no reason to doubt Johnny's word.
Neutral: you are very naive to think that a team boss might make an offer for a contract due to something they read in a magazine interview. "Jee, thats why TGF was quicker than Johnny 7 years ago, maybe I should give him the drive."
Bearing in mind his attitude to number 2 drivers it seems entirely plausible, and I wouldn't be suprised if Eddie had the same situation at Ferrari.

[Liz]

Some people are just ruthless. This is the way they get ahead, by stepping on everyone else, and as far as they are concerned, they expect other people to do the same, and if they don't, they are weaklings who deserve to be stepped on. This is not malice, this is a [I]modus operandi[I] that some people use. And if you remember back to 1993, you will recall TGF whingeing and crying about Senna getting special dispensation to barge people off the track (meaning "me") and that the stewards should not allow him to get away with it. I have that on tape.

Anyone who thinks that all TGF's teammates are whingeing liars and he alone is truthful is like the mother who watches the parade go by and says "Everyone is out of step but my Johnny."

[downforce]

Anyways angst, TILL that day I assume Johnny had access to Michael's data?
So then maybe Johnny was quicker by that one-thousandth of a second BECAUSE of Michael's data?????
In which case I think it was human for Michael to think "**** hes quiker b'coz of me?"

And if you feel Michael's won three titles bcoz of access to Verstappen+Irv+Herbert's data...then Whoa!...these dudes cant do much on their own.

But Liz, I get the feeling its the mothers of Schuey's teamates that put ideas into their son's heads!!!
"call him a cheat sonny"

[angst]

As I have said, there is no doubt TGF is fast, it is a matter of quite how good he actually is against his teammates that I am questioning. Now if neither driver ad access to the others data then fair enough, that's a fair fight. But if Schumacher can look at his teammates data but not the other way round who benefits? Let's say Johnny or Irv or Rubens or whoever is faster through curve a and b than TGF, who is getting more speed through turns x and y. He is then at liberty to find where that speed is coming from, whereas his hapless teammate has to work through it himself to find where his loss is coming from. That way TGF destroys his teammates, by having the data of the whole team, whereas his 'partner' has limited info.
Before the widespread use of telemetry in F1, it was vital that the drivers pooled their information, now that is not the case. Did Senna or Prost or Villeneuve or Lauda ever demand absolute control of their team? Did they shrink away from having an equal status with a teammate? Did they make demands as to who their teammate should be? (Senna vetoed Warwick because he believed the Lotus team were incapable of delivering two good cars, and feared Warwick with his Renault connections and being British would get favoured treatment within the team).
The day TGF actually has a teammate of some standing, who is regarded within the team as an equal is the day we can really start assessing his abilities, until then I have serious doubts he is as good as he and his supporters believe. Don't get me wrong, he's good.....but is he great? The jury is out as far as I'm concerned.
By the way Downforce, he did have equal tratment before that point, the sum total of one race.

[Gt_R]

Quote frm angst: "Don't get me wrong, he's good.....but is he great?"

No, Michael Schumacher is not great...
In 145 starts,
he only got on the podium 83 times
he only got 32 poles
he only got 44 GP wins
he only got the world drivers Champion 3 times
he only got 41 fastest laps
he only got 678 points
he only got 4.68 points per GP

Is Senna a great driver? I THINK YES!!~ (boy, he's a genius)
And in 161 starts,
he got an amazing 80 podium places
he got an amazing 65 poles
he got an amazing 41 wins
he got an amazing 3 world champions
he got an amazing 19 fastest laps
he got an amazing 648 points.

And how about his best rival Mika?
Divide by 2 for all the stats (except the number of race starts) above and you get a rough idea.

Wad do you think??? If that makes Michael only a good driver, darn, Mika and DC must be pretty lousy drivers!

Like him or not, you have to admit he IS GREAT!

And feel free to question his "Number One" in his team in the past, why he is treated so is simply because dear Herbert and Irvine (who are good drivers that i love personally for their character more than results) are not even fast enough to get that position.

Look at year 2k.
Rubens and Michael shared their telementry, and they set up their cars together. Ferrari gave them very much the same equipment. Over the season, he is on an average of 0.412 seconds faster than Rubens. (mika is but 0.083 quicker than DC). Now, i hope this shows how "great" Michael is!

Michael edges ahead of his rivals in where things get really challenging. In the difficult weather conditions, in new race tracks (like Sepang and USA) and the "drivers" circuits. In pit stops and in/out laps, and even playing a part in the structure of a team. He can bond with his team better than most drivers can too.

And what makes Michael even rarer is the fact that Michael has been consistenly quick throughout his career, right from the start. Put Michael in a Minardi and he might even outqualify the guys in the Sauber 7 times out of 10!~

In Qualifyings, you might say that Herbert is great for he outqualified Michael. But how often? Outqualifying your teammate occasionally is not a big deal. Mika outqualified Senna once too.

You might not like the old schumacher of 94-98, but his results are excellent, and his current character has been so nice.

[Airhead]

I tend to agree, being the team mate of MS is surely the kiss off death to your career. Another take on this is in the 500cc GP class Michael Doohan used to complain that he would spend practice setting up his bike and then have Honda transfer the settings onto the bikes of his competitors (who were Honda mounted as well).

It would seem fair if it was a two way street. Bt then settings and drivers/riders change.

So we are left to believe or disbelieve Johny. I'm with him on this one.

[downforce]

Michael the Great, finished ahead of Senna the Great in his very first full season with Bennetton'92!....and without Brundle's data

[Gt_R]

Perhaps my stance is not clear.

I believe Johnny, for if i do not believe him, i don't think i can believe any other 21 drivers. He is the most truthful, and hell of a funny chap!

But that i also think that what has been written had put the whole case into far more extreme light than the truth, and it is NOT Johnny i do not trust, NOT Michael i doubt, but is more of the journalist.

Anyway, i first read of this is a article feature of F1racing magazine 1997.

And i believe, in this case, nothing is particularly wrong, that MS is selfish, not THAT BAD... i would not let my (ex) girlfriend read my diary too.. And yes, i do take a peep at her's at times!

[Bononi]

How many more times we're gonna pull down TGF's skills ? How much do we need to say and compare with others "greats"? He is the number one and he's been this way since 1994, no matter who won the world championship. So it's been 6 years then, reigning as the best of all, Hill, JV and Cranky Mika could not destroy his domination ! And still there are doubts ?
I don't mind saying I am not a TGF fan, or even have any simpathy for him. He just doesn't fit on my personal patterns. Just like anyone else, I simply don't like him and I don't hate him either.
But as a driver and how he "works", for me is just simple...
Could anyone see Johnny Herbert as a 3 world champion ? Or anyone else in the field this last 6 years ?
Honestly, Damon Hill was a excellent driver as long as he had an almost perfect Williams. But still he could not handle a straight fight with TGF...
JV, I think, it is the only one who could make things harder, altough it seems Mika is playing this rule now... but, Cranky Mika is a excellent driver too, but still McLaren is above all cars.
Some of the rest, now are just promises, we're gonna have to wait and see...
Please, TGF deserves our respect ! Altough I love to yell and bang against him !!!!

[Red]

Numbers, fascinating stuff:
1992
Michael Schumacher – 53 p
Martin Brundle – 38 p

1993
Michael Schumacher – 52 p
Riccardo Patrese – 20 p

1994. (His B194B-Ford was so illegal and Bernie didn't ban him. Well, at least they didn't ban him enough. First proof of FIA's bias towards him)
Michael Schumacher – 92 p (2 DQ's, 2 races ban) undeserved WDC
Jos Verstappen – 10 p
J.J. Lehto – 1 p
Johnny Herbert – 0 p (obviously Flavio could afford only one traction control device that year and Schumacher did not allow JJ to play with his toy.)

1995
Michael Schumacher – 102 p (equaled Mansell's all times record of 9 wins in one season, runner up: Damon Hill – 69 p) obviously undeserved WDC.
Johnny Herbert – 44 p

Now I can see the truth! After Schumacher raced in six GPs in 1991, finishing 3 of them and scoring a tremendous four points, of course in 92 and 93 Flavio really wanted to give him a number 1 status over Brundle and Patrese. He really persecuted Jos in '94 (waitaminute, they're buddies as far as I heard) and he hid his telemetry data from Johnny in '95, that explains a 58 points difference between them (that's fifty eight points, or more than 1.3 times Johnny's total points, or more than 56% of Schumacher's total points). Hmmm, I really wonder what he would've done without all of this help. (Help? Nah, that's not the proper word, "machinations" is better)

Speaking of Ferrari era, it is obvious for everyone that Montezemolo, no not him, Agneli's sole purpose of life is to pay him big bucks making him the best remunerated sportsman ever. And just to make sure he will not upset Schumacher, he prevented Irvine and Barrichello from winning the Driver's Championship. Yep, that explains everything.

[angst]

Yes, and if you look at season '92 you'll see Brundle was very much on a par with TGF, not in qualifying, but in the races it's pretty much 50/50 on fastest laps (disregarding early retirements for either driver) and Brundle was quite often ahead of his esteemed teammate come raceday.

[neutral]

Red that was spot on. This subject deserves the sarcasm it is receiving. I would just like to remind the forum that Liz(Im attacking your posts and not you) is the same person who once claimed that the cause of Michaels tears in Monza where through the realisation that he was winning a fixed race while knowing that a marshall had died. Now this is not related to the subject but its purpose is to show how far people will go to knock Michael.

TGF's career cannot be taken at face value, his place in the realms of 'great' drivers is flawed by a number of anomalies.

Well this is clearly a view of the minority. While such opinions are permissible, one can only support such an argument based on conjecture and conspiracy theories. I feel passionate about this subject, but it serves to no avail. Some people will will continue to deny Michaels accomplishments, no matter what he go's on to achieve. If they haven't seen it by now they never will.

The trouble with some people is that they think with their hopes or wishes rather than with their minds.
—Will Durant

[angst]

Neutral, it may be that he is great, what I am questioning is his need to have his teammate completely subordinate. The time he spent as teammate to Brundle showed that he was on a par with him. Whereas the likes of Prost raced in the same team as Lauda, Senna, Rosberg, Mansell and Senna raced with Berger, de Angelis aswell as Prost and didn't demand the best of everything at the detriment of every teammate TGF has always demanded absolute number 1 status, and you would have to be very naiive to believe he doesn't have a veto on who his teammate will be. If he's that good, why would he need to do this?
As I say, it may be that he is as good as he and you would have me believe but I cannot really make my mind up as he has never been challenged by any teammate in an equal environment.
And as for the subject being treated with sarcasm, well we all know what sarcasm is...

[Gt_R]

This year, if not the past, has shown how Michael fare against a teammate in equal equipments and even similar setups...and well, its JUST another 9 wins to Rubens one!
Even if in Canada, Rubens was allowed to take on Michael, 8 wins in a season is still unremarkable to Rubens 2 wins.

i do not think Ferrari would give Rubens a lousier car in Japan so that he could not challenge the Mclarens and help Michael...and the result? Michael finish years ahead of Rubens in the end of the race!

Now...Michael beats his teammates...all of them...by a BIG margin!~


Quote:

1995
Michael Schumacher – 102 p (equaled Mansell's all times record of 9 wins in one season, runner up: Damon Hill – 69 p) obviously undeserved WDC.
Johnny Herbert – 44 p

Woah...a record breaking 9 wins in a season is "undeserved"???!! It makes Hill's 96 championship seem worthless then??

[downforce]

GeeeeeTeeeeeeee aaaaaaaaaR my man u missed the sarcasm

Brundle on par with Michael???....now now!

[angst]

Yep, Brundle on a par with TGF, just check out that season....

[Red]

Angst, yes he needs to have his team (not only a teammate) completely subordinate. Something like Jean Alesi has to do at Prost. As a matter of facts I heard that he and Michael are quite good friends, maybe Schumi can teach him a thing or two. I would really like a Prost/Ferrari team in third place in WCC, and who knows, maybe Jean could give Michael a run for his money in 2002... Ahhh, I'm thinking with my wishes <<sigh>>

His place in the realms of greatest? Flawed? Sheese, noone ever build the oldest motorsport team around him (let alone a multibillion $ company like Fiat) And that for five years in a row! (and ten more to come heh-heee . Ooops, eleven, I'm superstitious...) And he was paid big for doing that. It is enough to place him amongst the greatest. Don't dream that every "little bavarian boy" is able to do this.

[TimD]

Originally posted by angst
Yep, Brundle on a par with TGF, just check out that season....

Even better, beg borrow or steal a copy of the 1983 British Formula 3 championship. Martin Brundle patently close to matching some young chappie called Ayrton Senna da Silva.

Just goes to show what can happen when the breaks go against you. For Senna, a heavy but chuckable Toleman to get him noticed by Lotus. For Martin, a normally aspirated Tyrrell, when everyone else on the grid had a turbo. Not to mention a broken foot, and Jean-Marie Balestre taking all his points away at the end of the season.


On the subject of team mates, at the start of the 1994 season, Ayrton was memorably asked whether he saw Damon Hill as a team mate or a rival. His response?

"Neither".