Group A to Group N comparison

[Mike Sheraton]

Hi guys, i'm just doing some research on group a and group n cars.
Firstly i would like to ask if anyone can give me some information on the ford sierra rs500 group A to the GroupN Rs cosworth.

such as
HP
Torque
top speed etc

also entry lists for production saloons 1987-1990

[Tim Wilkinson]

Not much idea on the group a / prodsaloon differences with specifics to the Sierra. I'm sure someone on here could give an overview on what was allowed or not in prodsaloons - Gregor, KA etc will most likely know. It wasn't just what was allowed under the bonnet, the regs applied to wheel sizes, suspension etc too.

Not many RS Cosworths appeared in British group A, as they came at a time when the championship was at a low ebb, and as it picked up the RS500 became available (end of '87?).

Re: Prodsaloon entry lists. In early 80s there were two - the Monroe and Uniroyal. That seems to have been reduced to just the Uniroyal by '87, and then in '90 there were the Firestone and the new Esso-backed saloons. I'm afraid I don't know if there were any marked reg differences between the two / three, or why the Esso came about when there was already a prodsaloon championship.

General overview can be got from the Wilhire 24-hour entries. Entries to this came from the Uniroyal championship, and were picked from those showing most support to the championship.

1987 -
Class A - 7 Sierra Cosworths, a Rover Vitesse and 2 Starions.
Class B - 2 M3s, 3 Escort RSTs, 2 Merc 190s, one each of 2.8 Capri, Opel Monza & Renault 5T.
Class C - 4 1.8 16v Golfs, 3 Honda Civics (1.6l) & 1 Honda Prelude (2l), 3 1.9 205 GTIs, and one Corolla GT
Class D - Two Suzuki Swifts, and a pair of 1.3 Novas

Sierras took the first 3 places.

[Tim Wilkinson]

1988 -
Class A - 8 Sierra Cosworths
Class B - 6 M3s, 2 RSTs, 1 each of Merc 190, Opel Monza, 1.6t Lancia Delta, 1.6t Mazda 323 4x4
Class C - 7 1.8 Golfs, 1 each of 1.6l Civic, 2.0l Prelude, 1.6 Corolla, 1.6 Golf GTI, 1.9 205 GTI, 2.0 Fiat Strada Arbarth
Class D - 4 Suzuki Swifts

Sierra, M3, Golf this time.


1989 -
Class A - 7 Sierra Cosworths, 4 Sapphire Cosworths, a Saab 9000 turbo, and a Renault 21 turbo
Class B - 6 M3s, an RST and a Merc 190E 2.5-16
Class C - 8 Golf GTIs and a pair of Astra GTEs
Class D - 4 Suzuki Swifts

Top 3 - Sapphire, Sierra, Merc 190

[Tim Wilkinson]

1990 - I've just looked at a couple of random rounds and picked out the most common front-running cars.

Esso Saloon car championship -
Class A - Nissan Skyline, Sierra / Sapphire Cosworth; Class B - M3s; Class C - Golf GTIs and Astra GTEs; Class D - Honda Civics

Firestone Prod Saloon -
Class A - Sierra / Sapphire Cosworth; Class B - M3s; Class C - 1.8 Golfs, 1.6 Honda Civics, 2l Astras; Class D - Suzuki Swifts.

I'd make the guess that the Esso has splits at 3l, 2l and 1.6l. Firestone had them at 3l, 2l and 1.3l, hence the change of class for the Civics and the Swifts in the Firestone.


Forgot to add - are you looking for specific driver / car info on the 87-90 period?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

Re: Prodsaloon entry lists. In early 80s there were two - the Monroe and Uniroyal. That seems to have been reduced to just the Uniroyal by '87, and then in '90 there were the Firestone and the new Esso-backed saloons. I'm afraid I don't know if there were any marked reg differences between the two / three, or why the Esso came about when there was already a prodsaloon championship.

I think that the Firestone series was true prodsaloon running treaded tyres, whilst the Esso series was Group N, and on slicks?

Basic info I have is that a standard 'blueprinted' Cossie pumped out 220bhp, a Group A Cossie 300 plus with the latter RS500 in excess of 500bhp.

[R59]

From my recollection....

All on road tyres : The Monroe became The Flintstone, and The Uniroyal.

Slicks - BARC/BRSCC Production Saloons which came later. Wasn't that the ESSO as the former championships didn't exist post 1989.

I seem to recall the BRDC ran a series too (when they did things other than rent Silverstone out) though it might have been co-run one with BARC? Was that the Monroe/Flintstone series?

[Tim Wilkinson]

From a brief glance back at Autosports I didn't see any Monroe results from 87 to 90. The Firestone appeared in 90, and seemed to have most of the cars from the Uniroyal.

I've seen reference to a BARC Prodsaloon championship later in the 90s, but didn't pay attention as I was looking for other things. That seemed to be in direct competition with National Saloon Car c'ship, which later propped up BTCC who in turn destroyed it when it suited them in the early 00s.

It all seems very confusing, and when I get the time I'll sit down and work out what became what and when, and why - but that probably won't happen until next summer.

[KA]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

Not much idea on the group a / prodsaloon differences with specifics to the Sierra. I'm sure someone on here could give an overview on what was allowed or not in prodsaloons - Gregor, KA etc will most likely know. It wasn't just what was allowed under the bonnet, the regs applied to wheel sizes, suspension etc too.
Not many RS Cosworths appeared in British group A, as they came at a time when the championship was at a low ebb, and as it picked up the RS500 became available (end of '87?).

I'm not too hot on the technical details of the cars without looking it up- one thing to remember was that as a Group A Evolution homologation, the RS500 wasn't eligible in Group N or Prodsaloons, (or rallying for that matter), just the 'basic' Cosworth.
As Tim suggests, the differences weren't just engine and gearbox spec, but the Group A cars had much more freedom over suspension, wheels and tyre sizes (AFAIK Group N cars & prodsaloons originally had to use standard production rims rather than aftermarket race wheels for example)
Probably the best way of comparing the performance of Group A Cosworths/RS500s and Group N/Prodsaloon Cosworths would be to compare laptimes for the two. Not sure from memory which meetings would have seen Prodsaloons and BTCC Group A cars at the same meeting, but Prodsaloons were usually a part of the support race schedule for the TT at Silverstone- I'll dig my '87 TT race programme out and have a look at the fastest laps for each, though you'd have to bear in mind that it was absolutely hissing down with rain, for much of the day, and from memory conditions were worse for the WTCC race in the afternoon than they'd been for the prodsaloons in the morning.....


Alternatively, a few prodsaloon Cosworths did show up at for the BTCC race supporting the British GP- a look at the qualifying times for that would give you a better comparison than the TT, although the prodsaloons would have been running on slicks for the occasion, and maybe had a few additional tweaks as well.
I posted the result for the race in the BTCC thread, but helpfully I haven't kept a note of the fastest laps and qualifying times....

If anyone's got access to the Autosport or MN reports for the British GP meeting, you'd need to look at the qualifying times for Mike Smith, Robb Gravett, Jerry Mahony and Dave Morgan to compare with the Group A Sierras of Peter Hall, Win Percy and Graham Goode.

All of the BTCC Sierras (the two Rouse/ICS cars of Rouse and Pete Hall and Graham Goode's Listerine car) were Cosworths rather than RS500s in the early part of the year- probably up to the Oulton or Donington rounds in August I think?, as the RS500 wasn't homologated until mid-season (the Eggenberger WTCC cars didn't appear in RS500 form until Brno in August IIRC)

I can't remember the exact chronology of the various 80's prodsaloon sponsors either, though there were definitely two series running in competition (Uniroyal and Monroe) at one time. I think there was a change to international Group N regs and slick tyres by the time of the Esso sponsorship in the early 90's. I'll have a look back through my old race programmes and see what I can find- maybe post a couple of sample entry lists to expand on what Tim said about the regular front-running cars

[Tim Wilkinson]

I've found the '91 club c'ship previews - Esso "Group N" was new for '90, and ran to basically international grp N rules and allowed slick tyres. It filled a gap between Prodsaloon and group A / Class 2 (supertouring). It also took a lot of the prodsaloon runners! Only the Firestone is referred to, so I think that is what the Uniroyal became - that was drastically down in numbers, half the entry being Suzuki Swifts that would be uncompetitive in the "up to 1600" class if improved to Group N spec.

If dates can be supplied I can look up / scan results - I was lucky enough to find a collection of pretty much every Autosport from early 80s to earlier this year. Unfortunately that's a lot of mags to scan through for small points, so extra info might be on a very random basis. I was too young to have been there in period, although I'm still fasincated by it, so first-hand knowledge is in short supply from me, I'm afraid.

[KA]

Just dug out some old race programmes, and there still seem to have been two separate series in 1992-

The BRSCC/BRDC Saloon Car Championship, which is recognisably Prodsaloons as we knew it in Uniroyal/Monroe days, with 5 classes. Looking at the entries for Brands in June and Silverstone in October (both BTCC supports) we've got:

Class A 3000cc+ all Sierra Cosworths, a mix of Sapphires and Sapphire 4x4s, with the odd 3-door still around. Names like Ian Khan, Michael Woodcock, David Bartrum, Peter Clarke, James Prochowski, David Yates etc. The sole non-Cosworth interloper in the couple of races I looked at was Geoff Breakell's Subaru Legacy at Silverstone

Class B- 2000-3000cc- all BMWs- mainly M3s apart from Ian Cantwell's 325i (Cantwell had the then-new E36 shape I think)- M3 runners were Mike Jordan, Guy Povey, Graham Coomes, Dave Brunsdon amongst others

Class C- 1601-2000- mainly Astras apart from David Oates' 16-valve Peugeot 309GTi. Astra drivers included Piers Johnson, David Pitcher, David Eves, Vaughan Richmond, and a 2-car team from Vauxhall dealer Masters of Morden for Paul Michael and Peter Morss

Class D- 1401-1600cc- poorly-supported, but Honda Civic territory- Tim Busby, Roland Dane, Michael Day...

Class E- up to 1400cc- exclusively Suzuki Swifts- Shaun Andrews, and Brett Darrall seemed to be at the sharp end of the class

A Donington BTCC round in June featured the BARC Production Cars Championship amongst it's supports- 3 classes here, with a different class structure to the BRSCC/BRDC series:

'Grand Sports'- Mainly Cosworths here, with the addition of Lionel Abbott's Saab 9000, and a couple of the under 3-litre cars- Alistair Davidson's Merc 190 and Frank Cundell's M3.
Note the change in the series title from 'Production Saloons' to 'Production Cars'- a change reflected by the presence of a couple of Porsches in the 'GS' class- Tom Segrue's 944 and Paul Edwards' 911 Carrera 2

'Touring'- Golfs, Escort RS2000, Fiat Tipo (Bill Stilwell), Astra (the perennial Tony Lanfranchi) and Honda Civic.

'Sports Saloon'- mainly Suzuki Swifts, with the odd Fiesta XR2 thrown in

[KA]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

From a brief glance back at Autosports I didn't see any Monroe results from 87 to 90. The Firestone appeared in 90, and seemed to have most of the cars from the Uniroyal.

The Monroe series still seemed to be around in '88- I've got a programme here for an International Supersports historic race at Donington in June '88, which also featured a Vauxhall Lotus round (won by one Allan McNish- his team-mate ended up 12th after a penalty for a jump start- a guy by the name of Hakkinen, wonder what happened to him? ) and a Monroe race.

The Monroe entry was fairly small, but to give a flavour of it-
Class A- mainly Cosworths- the likes of Lionel Abbott, Dave Morgan, Sean Brown, Kieth Odor, Grahame Davis, plus Steve Monk's Starion

Class B- up to 3-litre by the look of it- Escort RS Turbos (Vaughan Richmond, David Shead, Jeffrey Mills) and Opel Monzas (Frank Cundell and Kevin James)

Class C- up to 2-litre- Golfs (Andy Middlehurst, Sean Lockyear, Dave Oates, Roger Jones, David Kay) and Peugeot 205GTis (Joss Ronchetti, Keith Saunders)

Looking at another Donington programme, from a British F3 meeting in July 87, the Uniroyal series was in fine health with an entry big enough to justify 2 races, split by class.

Class A- Cosworths, Rovers, Starions- and a lot of well-known names from prodsaloons, including a fair number of future BTCC RS500 runners- Tim Harvey, Lawrence Bristow, Robb Gravett, Jerry Mahony, Mike Smith were all in Cosworths here, plus Dave Pinkney with a Rover. A couple of Starions as well, for Colin Blower and Chris Sanders

Class B- 2001-3000cc- M3s, RS Turbos, Merc 190s and Opel Monzas- Karl Jones (RSTurbo), Bob Sands (M3), Roger Eccles (Merc), Godfrey Hall (M3) amongst others

The smaller classes raced separately-

Class C- 1300-2000cc: Golfs, (Vic Lee, Andy Middlehurst, James Kaye, John Morris, Jeremy Rossiter), Peugeot 205s (Dave Oates, Art Markus, Kieth Odor, Joss Ronchetti) Honda Civics and Preludes (Des Winks, Trevor Elliott, Andy Ackerley), Toyota Corolla GT, Fiat Strada 130TC and Daihatsu Charade Turbo

Class D- up to 1300cc- Suzuki Swifts and Novas (Guy Povey, Barbara Cowell, Alastair Davidson etc)

[Tim Wilkinson]

Thanks for that, KA. There does seem to have been a lot of cross-over; I wonder which clubs ran which, and why one faded away. I'm sure the answer is in those Autosports, I just have to find time to dig it out, amongst all of the other stuff I keep getting distracted by!

I did see some footage, possibly linked to on this site, of a prodsaloon round at Oulton (it was filmed from the hairpin used by the BTCC guys now - Island?) - there was only 9 or 10 cars in that race, tops.

BTW, KA - do you post on the other site you mentioned (in the BTCC thread, with info on an '87 Starion entry) under a different name?

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

I've found the '91 club c'ship previews - Esso "Group N" was new for '90, and ran to basically international grp N rules and allowed slick tyres. It filled a gap between Prodsaloon and group A / Class 2 (supertouring). It also took a lot of the prodsaloon runners! Only the Firestone is referred to, so I think that is what the Uniroyal became - that was drastically down in numbers, half the entry being Suzuki Swifts that would be uncompetitive in the "up to 1600" class if improved to Group N spec.

Have hunted further, and both Uniroyal and Firestone were running in '89, so what I wrote before was incorrect.

The '89 Firestone was run by BARC, and continued into '90 with Prodsaloon rules.

The '89 Uniroyal was run by BRDC and moved to group N regs and Esso backing in '90. A couple of the Uniroyal front-runners were backed by Firestone, which complicates matters, as Firestone were advertising heavily on the back of prodsaloon success, even if that success was in the "other" championship!

[Tim Wilkinson]

I've found a GrpA / ProdSaloon comparison of Escort RSTs, by Tiff Needell. If you want a copy let me know and I'll scan it in. Autosport, February 25th '88. (so I can find it again!).

[KA]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

I've found a GrpA / ProdSaloon comparison of Escort RSTs, by Tiff Needell. If you want a copy let me know and I'll scan it in. Autosport, February 25th '88. (so I can find it again!).

Tim- I'd recently mentioned that article in the BTCC thread, so I'm very glad you've found it- Now I've got the date, I know which Autosport I'm looking for as I'm sure I've got a copy here

[Tim Wilkinson]

I thought it had been mentioned somewhere, but I couldn't remember who by - it's what made me think to post that I'd found it. With here and the other place, there's a lot to check.

[dtm-archives]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

I've found a GrpA / ProdSaloon comparison of Escort RSTs, by Tiff Needell. If you want a copy let me know and I'll scan it in. Autosport, February 25th '88. (so I can find it again!).

Bit of a long shot but any chance that you could scan that article?