WRC codriver injuries

[johnh875]

After so many spine fractures in the Rally of Finland, surely the regulations must be changed to ensure the teams look after the well-being of codrivers? After all, none of these incidents involved a crash, they were all the result of landing from jumps. To put the codrivers at risk of quite serious injury as they did is unacceptable in my view.

Surely it would be possible to use bump stop rubbers or urethane/elastomer seat mounts to avoid the shocks being transmitted to the codrivers seat and causing these injuries.

[EVO1X]

Fully agreed John but its funny that it never was a problem before, and this is the first year that the driver and co-driver are using the HANS device

[chezza]

Oh dear god please don't bring up the HANS debate yet again.

I'm not totally sure that HANS has had anything to do with these injuries. HANS stops the hyperextension in a forward way...it cannot stop any compression or fracture to the spine.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by EVO1X

Fully agreed John but its funny that it never was a problem before, and this is the first year that the driver and co-driver are using the HANS device

These injuries probably have more to do with the increasing tendency to site the co-drivers seat closer and closer to the floor of the car

[ss_collins]

No difference to last year KB

[Cryos]

Originally Posted by johnh875

After so many spine fractures in the Rally of Finland, surely the regulations must be changed to ensure the teams look after the well-being of codrivers? After all, none of these incidents involved a crash, they were all the result of landing from jumps. To put the codrivers at risk of quite serious injury as they did is unacceptable in my view.

Surely it would be possible to use bump stop rubbers or urethane/elastomer seat mounts to avoid the shocks being transmitted to the codrivers seat and causing these injuries.

Ok hang on stop the presses, you have to accept the fact that this is going to happen anyway. What do you want to do put more padding in the seats ? Very little you can do.

[ss_collins]

we are discussing it here - HANS is prime suspect but we don't understand why.

[Cameron Winton]

This is not a new problem. I can remember back in the days of escorts & Fiat 131's problems with codriver's backs. I can't remember which but I am sure either Terry Harryman or Fred Gallagher had to retire due to back injuries.
Also, mounting the co driver low is nothing new. I can remember it being the done thing back in the late seventies/early eighties. I think it was Pentti Arrikala's chevette had the navigator so low you could only see the top of his helmet.
The problem is that there is nothing to brace the body with as the driver has.

[chezza]

Originally Posted by Cameron Winton

The problem is that there is nothing to brace the body with as the driver has.

Yes they were talking about this in the program. Passengers in cars always get thrown around more that the driver. Although i cannot see what can be done to enable the driver to be able to brace himself.

[ss_collins]

so why didn't we see these problems last year

[johnh875]

The driver can take some of the load with his arms. I think as mentioned there have always been isolated cases, but not in the numbers we've seen this year.

As for the "nothing you can do", "it's always happened" arguments, that is not a reason not to look at the problem and see how it can be improved - better to be proactive than wait until someone is seriously hurt first.

I don't think the Hans would have much impact - it only restrains forward/sideways movement of the head (I don't think excessive movement of this type is an issue?), unless the helmets are hitting the "tower" behind the neck perhaps?

My perception is that it is only the extreme crests that cause problems, so it is only the "spike" that needs to be taken off the load chart in these cases - a fairly common scenario.

[ss_collins]

but the stages are near identical to last year, as are the cars and the crews, so why did this problem not happen last year?

[flagwaver]

Luck plays a part. I have attended rally accidents on the same corner two years running one year no injury the next broken bones.
The driver is more likely to see the accident comming (the navigator having head down reading notes)
He can also brace against the steering wheel. The navigator can only brace his legs on floor/footrest. (this in itself is likely to cause "shocks" to travel up the spine.)
Their is always an arguement that goes along the lines that if you brace yourself to much then that in itself can cause injury.

[Cryos]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

we are discussing it here - HANS is prime suspect but we don't understand why.

well seing as your head isnt moving it cant transfere any inpact down through your body so the cartalage in your spine has to absorbe it somehow thus slipping a disk or fracturing one.

[ss_collins]

rxie I'm not convinced but best explanation yet - flagwaver afraid I can't get on with your explanation - I have recently become something of a rally crash test dummy so know how one shunt is fine but another hurts a lot. But don't forget these are not shunts these cars are performing as expected - the jumps are identical to previous years as I keep saying you have to find the anomalies to find the cause. If it happened to just one co driver there would be no issue but a spate of them one year with only one major change - HANS - however I suspectthe crews were wearing HANS in finland last year so that might scotch the Hans thoery..

[flagwaver]

rxie, the hans device does not stop the head from moving, just moving to much. It does not restrict up & down movement of the spine. Nor does the Hans Device add any direct loading on the spine.
SS collins, I used the accident point to emphasise that to accident/landings at the same piont do not produce the same result, hence a certain ammount of luck. Can we be certain the yumps are exactly the same? As forest roads do tend to ge used by some very heavy equipment. Certainly there is a lot of reprofiling takes place in most UK forests over a year.

[Anuauto]

The trouble in Finland was all on a stage that was not used last year? - and had been practiced only at slower speed. Outside of works teams, the amateur driver I co-drove for in the mid 70s, including in Finland in 1974, was one of the first to experiment with setting the co-driver's seat as far back and as low down as possible. I was average weight then and tall enough to cope with the visibility. I now have 3 compacted lower vertebrae. Seats now are virtually solid with little padding. Back then rallies were long enough to need a reclining seat on the co-driver's side and in Group One standard passenger seats were mandatory. Driver's seats were generally better padded than now. For Finland they now use much lower ride height than anyone used to, works or private entrants.

[imull]

didnt hte majority of injuries occur on a new jump? I though they all happened where Solberg had that moment...

The jumps on Finland are for the most parts pretty tame. They may be long and big, but if you look the cars follow a relativey low trajectory. PLaces like where Martin had his accidnet in Argentina and the Fafe (sp?) Jump in portugal probably actually put more force/stresses through the car and crew. Not to mention places like Greece where bottoming out is often occurring on large rocks...

Its the bottoming out that does the damage rather than any impact. Afterall there is no suspension system to damp the impact

[imull]

remember that famous video clip of an 037 in portugal. Landed that heavily it bounced and bottomed out on teh second landing too!

[johnh875]

Yes the bottoming out is the key thing. Not familiar enough with the stages but it was ss5 which behaved differently to the indication on recce - look at the rally report on Petter Solberg's website.

Maybe it is similar to the Michelin tyre fiasco? What I mean here is perhaps the teams went too far with their suspension tuning, sacrificing a bump stop function to use every last millimetre as "normal" suspension travel.

[Roundy Mooney]

Originally Posted by flagwaver

rxie, the hans device does not stop the head from moving, just moving to much. It does not restrict up & down movement of the spine. Nor does the Hans Device add any direct loading on the spine.

Does the harness go over the hans device or the opposite way round ? I would imagine if it sits under the harness it would be very uncomfortable under braking.

[1200Datto27]

Could it also be that the speeds this years are faster than last year, leading to the loads being received by the occupants being pushed to the wrong side of the load spike?

[Anuauto]

There were always back injuries on the 1000 Lakes. Both Alen and Mikkola I think received back injuries in privateer Volvo days. The Castrol film "The Flying Finns" includes a sequence of Soderstrom landing one of the first Escort Twincams so hard it makes you wince and a guy in a Volvo 122 somersaulting along the ditch. Some of the "worst" jumps are long gone from the event, plus the need to keep wheels on the ground for traction is better understood now and more essential to maximise the 4wd advantage. Posts are still missing the point - the problem this year was a new stage not practised at full speed.

[flagwaver]

The Hans does go under the belts and rests on the shoulders,there is "some" padding to the "underside" of the Hans frame. If there was to much padding then the device would not be as effective.