Toyota outside 107% ??

[steve nielsen]

McNish completes Imola test for Toyota

F1 newcomers off the pace in San Marino

Toyota completes trouble-free test, now for the pace

The Toyota Formula 1 team completed three days of exclusive testing at Imola on Thursday, but wound up almost six seconds slower than David Coulthard's pole time from April's San Marino Grand Prix.

Toyota is gearing up for an assault on next year's Formula 1 World Championship and before this week's test, the team had completed all its running at the Paul Ricard circuit in the South of France.

Allan McNish, who is expected to partner Mika Salo at the German-based team next year, completed all the running in the Japanese marque's development car and was unconcernced by the lap times.

"The test was enjoyable and interesting," said McNish. "It was very important to try the car on another circuit. Conditions were different to those of a Grand Prix weekend, with less rubber down on the track, making lap times slightly slower."

McNish completed 136 laps over the three days, but running was delayed on Wednesday by rain. The Scot concentrated mainly on data acquisition and set-up work and will get back behind the wheel at the next test scheduled for June 11 at Monza.

______________________________(autosport.com)

Well , if this would be a qualifying session Allan would'nt even be inside 107%, so Toyota still has a lot of work to do, also Mika Salo was'nt to happy with the progress that was beeing made, it looks like Minardi won't be the last team on the grid next year.....

[Valve Bounce]

It's early days, and as we all say" testing is testing".
If they have one whole year to test engine and chassis, you can bet that Toyota's designer, pinched from Minardi, will get that car onto the grid in Melbourne without any problems.

[Bononi]

Ditto VB.

[Niall]

There was acctually talk of the FIA dropping the 107 % rule for next year if Toyota cannot mkae the pace.

Although this would be highly unfair on teams in the past who have failed to make the cut.

Niall

[senna12]

The test confirms the earlier rumours regarding the car, the fact that it is REALLY slow, and it certainly explains the team going after Brunner regardless of the legal implications. But six seconds is more than a chassis problem, its the engine too. They'll need at least a year to figure it out. Sounds like a year or 2 at the back of the grid appears likely. Brunner will be considered a god if Toyota wins within 3 years.

[DNQ]

They've got a year of development. They'll sort things out in time. And, it was only testing. Who knows, maybe they weren't pushing the car to it's limits? Maybe they were running race distances for testing?

[Wrex]

If they had beaten DC's pole time we would have written it off as testing so we should do the same here.

BAR educated everyone a few years ago that it is better to enter without high expectations. BMW did a great job of this.

[steve nielsen]

This years qualifying times:

1 David Coulthard McLaren Mercede United Kingdo 1:23.054 -- -- 213.692
2 Mika Häkkinen McLaren Mercedes Finland 1:23.282 + 0.228 + 0.228 213.107
3 Ralf Schumacher BMW-Williams F1 Germany 1:23.357 + 0.303 + 0.075 212.915
4 Michael Schumacher Scuderia Ferrari Germany 1:23.593 + 0.539 + 0.236 212.314
5 Jarno Trulli Jordan Honda Italy 1:23.658 + 0.604 + 0.065 212.149
6 Rubens Barrichello Scuderia Ferrari Brasil 1:23.786 + 0.732 + 0.128 211.825
7 Juan Pablo Montoya BMW-Williams F1 Columbia 1:24.141 + 1.087 + 0.355 210.931
8 Olivier Panis Lucky Strike BAR Honda France 1:24.213 + 1.159 + 0.072 210.751
9 Heinz-Harald Frentzen Jordan Honda Germany 1:24.436 + 1.382 + 0.223 210.194
10 Kimi Raikkonen Sauber Petronas Finland 1:24.671 + 1.617 + 0.235 209.61
11 Jacques Villeneuve Lucky Strike BAR Honda Canada 1:24.769 + 1.715 + 0.098 209.368
12 Nick Heidfeld Sauber Petronas Germany 1:25.007 + 1.953 + 0.238 208.782
13 Eddie Irvine Jaguar Racing United Kingdom 1:25.392 + 2.338 + 0.385 207.841
14 Jean Alesi Prost Grand Prix France 1:25.411 + 2.357 + 0.019 207.794
15 Luciano Burti Jaguar Racing Brazil 1:25.572 + 2.518 + 0.161 207.403
16 Enrique Bernoldi Orange Arrows Brazil 1:25.872 + 2.818 + 0.3 206.679
17 Jos Verstappen Orange Arrows Netherlands 1:26.062 + 3.008 + 0.19 206.223
18 Fernando Alonso Minardi Spain 1:26.855 + 3.801 + 0.793 204.34
19 Giancarlo Fisichella Benetton Playlife Italy 1:26.902 + 3.848 + 0.047 204.229
20 Gaston Mazzacane Prost Grand Prix Argentina 1:27.750 + 4.696 + 0.848 202.255
21 Jenson Button Benetton Playlife United Kingdom 1:27.758 + 4.704 + 0.008 202.237
22 Tarso Marques Minardi Brazil 1:28.281 + 5.227 + 0.523 201.039
-- 107% -- -- 1:28.868
------------------------

So, Toyota would be outside 107%, and also 7 tenths slower than Marques in the Minardi(who is already much slower than the rest of the field).......

[Tristan]

WAT?? Hang on, we have NO IDEA what fuel load they were running, whether the engine had been de-tuned for testing, whether there were any unreported problems etc. etc.

Still, I DO have the wierdest feeling that Toyota may well be "the new BAR".

[steve nielsen]

They ran 136 laps, they must have had low fuel sometimes. And the team would want to know how fast the car really is: it was the first test at a GP circuit, so they can compare the times(that would be one of the reasons to test there instead of Paul Ricard).
If the engine was detuned, well, that would only AD a problem for the team would'nt it(look at the Renault).......

[Tristan]

Good greif. This isn't going to be easy for the Toyota boys in their first season. Let's hope they don't go around bandying claims of "race wins by the end of the year" kinda thing, 'cause it doesn't look like it's going to transpire!

[LucaBadoer]

Can't you remember BMW's first test at the A1-Ring in 1999? I recall that they were about tn seconds off the pace - but look at them now. It is far too early to evaluate Toyota's situation.

[JVA]

I have read somewhere that the times in Monza where good for the 15th position on the grid from the year 2000

That isn't that bad I think!!

They will be, I am sure of that, not outside the 107% rule.
They have still nearly a year to test, so they will make some progress!!

[Sodemo]

I think the lack of power in the engine is due to the stupid FIA. Toyota were developing a V-12, and when the FIA announced that V-10s were only permitted, it set Toyota back many months, and a few million pounds worth of research.
Toyota were not pleased.

[Nicholas]

Originally posted by Sodemo
I think the lack of power in the engine is due to the stupid FIA. Toyota were developing a V-12, and when the FIA announced that V-10s were only permitted, it set Toyota back many months...

They've got plenty of time and plenty of money. It is a shame that the FIA banned the V12 but it really isn't an excuse.

It sounds like they are going the BAR route and then some. McNish has already said that "We aren't arrogant enough to say that we will win first time out" but this is ridiculous. Salo has predicted to line up 4th at Melbourne...

They've got a massive budget and a whole year of testing. If they can't get within the 107% time (BAR could manage that) then they don't deserve to compete in F1. (BAR were quick in pre-debut-testing, BTW).

And if they were in race trim (yeah right), what was the fastest laptime then?

[Ed G]

One thing that I want to point out is that in qualifying you have had 22 cars putting in probably 50 laps on the circuit before hand during the practice sessions. Secondly one has to wonder what kind of tires they are running.

Here are the actual times

Day 1: 5th June – 1:30.124 - 43 laps
Day 2: 6th June – 1:29.953 - 25 laps
Day 3: 7th June – 1: 28.960 - 68 laps


They aren't that far off the 107% line (less than 0.1 s) and that could easily be explained by the track rubber.

I think they should have little problem with the 107% rule but then again Prost was putting in some amazing times last winter and look whats happening to them.

[Nicholas]

Here's a rather interesting article I found:

"We're confident we'll able to qualify well and to achieve a high number of race finishes in our first season," Andersson told Italian newspaper Corriere dello Sport."The following year we'll be aiming to get some points finishes.

Okay, but if you can qualify well and achieve a high number of finishes, you're bound to score, just look at Prost or Jag.

though the team refused to release lap times to avoid comparisons with their F1 rivals, Andersson revealed they were already well on the pace.

"At Imola we posted times which, if compared to recent grand prix qualifying sessions, would have put us on row seven or eight of the start grid," he said.

Uh, someone can't count! 6 seconds does not put you on row 6! And if you're so proud of your times, why don't you publish your laptimes? Or leave Minardi alone for that matter?

"One thing is certain, even right now the Toyota would be starting regularly in midfield."

Midfield for what? The under 8's egg and spoon race?

[Gt_R]

Indeed, Toyota is facing an uphill task at the moment. While their times are not exactly competitive with the current runners, remember that they have 0 experience in F1, and that they are not only building their own chassis, they are also building their own engine. Considering this and that this is their 2nd official test on a GP circuit, its quite an acceptable effort. I do not think Toyota would fail to qualify within 107%, their pride, budget and reputation would forbid. But i do not expect them to challenge for wins and top honours soon too...But do not rule them out...they have won WCC in Rally, and have been the fastest car in LeMans when they are competing...they are a force to reckon with.

[Valve Bounce]

I think the significant thing, which we have all overlooked is the fact that they did 136 laps without the engine going bang. Personally, I think they are well on track to put that car on the grid in Melbourne. Anyone here willing to bet against that? Helmut Brunner will work on the chassis, there will be improvements on the aerodynamics, the tyres will be better, the engine will put out more poewer, and they will race at Albert Park.

[JeremySmith]

It's just pure speculation at this time ladies and gentleman... To early to tell.

[steve nielsen]

It seems to be getting better, at the Monza test this week they drove 1.28.5 wich is faster than Alonso a few weeks ago, WOW they beat a 4 year old engine!!, they must be very happy with themselves

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by steve nielsen
It seems to be getting better, at the Monza test this week they drove 1.28.5 wich is faster than Alonso a few weeks ago, WOW they beat a 4 year old engine!!, they must be very happy with themselves

Testing is testing - just that. We have no idea what they were testing for or what state of engine tuning the settings are, nor fuel loads, nor what tyres. Steve, let's just wait until March next year, when I will be able to watch quals from trackside, and hear the engine. I'll let you know then, if you can't make Melbourne that is. Otherwise, we can watch it together.

[Nicholas]

But do not rule them out...they have won WCC in Rally, and have been the fastest car in LeMans when they are competing...they are a force to reckon with.

Well, wasn't that the Reynard chassised BAR team's philosophy, having had Reynard wipe the floor with their rivals first time out?

The point is, they really don't have to lie about their times, even if they have little experience.

But, remember that this is something like Toyota's 3rd attempt to get into F1, they must be pretty confident that this will pull off.

[JeremySmith]

I don't think that Toyota are obliged to talk about their testing times with anyone.

[EERO]

We all know how difficult it is for a team to break into the top two. Williams, probably the best TEAM out there couldn't do a thing with the Supertechs and the BMW needed a year under their belt before they were winners. Jaguar has some very talented people working for them and last years absence of the correct priorities completely befuddled the team. In the early 90's McLaren went from Honda to Ford to Peugeot to Mercedes engines and it took until '97 to sort that mess out.

It seems to me that Toyota are serious, are going about the process right but that it will take time to put all the pieces together-but for now, its TOO early to tell one way or the other.