Too many club level championships?

[tocatrucky]

a cursory glance at club level motorsport show it appears to be bit broken at the moment.

Take the jumble MX5, every major organising club has championships for them, BRSCC, BARC, 750MC and now new for 2023 MSVR not to mention the numerous classes within existing championships. In theory you could rock up with any club and get on most of the grids that day with you little MX5.

Whilst its good to have choice, its a bit of ''too many cooks spoil the broth''. For the layman non-followerof the car, it seems the grid lining up is idetical to the one the chequered flag waved before on. BRSCCC for example have the following:

MX5 championship
MX5 clubman championship
MX5 mk4 Trophy
MX5 Supercup

Yes I accept that they are for different ages of machines but to Dennis and Doris on the spectator banking they all have Mazda mages, no roof, sound identical so must be the same, 4 grids on the average timetable is 25%. And the pattern repeats in Catherhams under the BRSCC wing where there only noticeable difference Doris and Dennis are the addition of lights and glass to or from each grid:

Caterham Academy championship
Caterham Roadsport championship
Caterham 270R championship
Caterham 310R championship

Heaven forbid the planners put both on during a weekend, 16 races with just 2 types of car!

Of course we've seen one marque/model dominating enough to be replicated across clubs bbefore, Honda Civic EP3s seem to have grids popping up everywhere lately. Is it time for a cull/merging of championships? Never mind the poorly supported ones...

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by tocatrucky

a cursory glance at club level motorsport show it appears to be bit broken at the moment.

Take the jumble MX5, every major organising club has championships for them, BRSCC, BARC, 750MC and now new for 2023 MSVR not to mention the numerous classes within existing championships. In theory you could rock up with any club and get on most of the grids that day with you little MX5.

Whilst its good to have choice, its a bit of ''too many cooks spoil the broth''. For the layman non-followerof the car, it seems the grid lining up is idetical to the one the chequered flag waved before on. BRSCCC for example have the following:

MX5 championship
MX5 clubman championship
MX5 mk4 Trophy
MX5 Supercup

Yes I accept that they are for different ages of machines but to Dennis and Doris on the spectator banking they all have Mazda mages, no roof, sound identical so must be the same, 4 grids on the average timetable is 25%. And the pattern repeats in Catherhams under the BRSCC wing where there only noticeable difference Doris and Dennis are the addition of lights and glass to or from each grid:

Caterham Academy championship
Caterham Roadsport championship
Caterham 270R championship
Caterham 310R championship

Heaven forbid the planners put both on during a weekend, 16 races with just 2 types of car!

Of course we've seen one marque/model dominating enough to be replicated across clubs bbefore, Honda Civic EP3s seem to have grids popping up everywhere lately. Is it time for a cull/merging of championships? Never mind the poorly supported ones...

This has been going on for many a year. All clubs seem to run their own championships. Go back over 10 years, the same problems occurred then. Nothing has been done to improve it.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by tocatrucky

Take the jumble MX5, every major organising club has championships for them, BRSCC, BARC, 750MC and now new for 2023 MSVR not to mention the numerous classes within existing championships. In theory you could rock up with any club and get on most of the grids that day with you little MX5.

Whilst its good to have choice, its a bit of ''too many cooks spoil the broth''. For the layman non-followerof the car, it seems the grid lining up is idetical to the one the chequered flag waved before on. BRSCCC for example have the following:

MX5 championship
MX5 clubman championship
MX5 mk4 Trophy
MX5 Supercup

To be fair, BARC's MX5 championship was canned at the end of last year. Also the Mk. 4 Trophy has run as part of other BRSCC championships owing to a relatively low take up, therefore it hasn't been a race in its own right yet. The point stands that there is room for some pruning of championships (and, one would like, some co-operation between clubs to avoid duplication). However, as previously said this is something that has been required for some years.

Originally Posted by tocatrucky

Heaven forbid the planners put both on during a weekend, 16 races with just 2 types of car!

It has happened.

[fergus_r]

Originally Posted by kipper

It has happened.

Not only has it happened, but it's the norm for BRSCC Caterhams to have at least four of their championships in action over a weekend.

The OP's list misses out the 420Rs, and there are some meetings which feature all five championships - typically allowing for three or four non-Caterham categories to take up the rest of the meeting.

Having said that, the finals weekend this year has them split up with some racing at Spa and the others at Silverstone. In fact, the BRSCC have four meetings that weekend...

[andrewc]

Popular series can often split due to disagreements with how things are being run - its difficult to please everyone all of the time.

Sometimes there is a disagreement over rules and regulations (either considered too restrictive or indeed not restrictive enough) and a faction of teams and drivers sets up a similar championship elsewhere.

Sometimes one championship becomes considered a stepping stone championship for well funded young professionals who have a robust attitude to overtaking and passing, which annoys the club racer who was quite content with what was the status quo. The organisers like the influx of money and the press coverage its getting and they don't listen to the core and loyal band of racers. Annoy enough and you've got the makings of a grid elsewhere, so off they and sets up a similar championship.

Occassionally you have a series that starts up and is so popular that the grid allocation is full - witness the initial success of the Citroen C1 series - that led to MSVR creating EnduroKa and then BRSCC setting up the CityCar championship for those wanting to contest 20 minute races rather than 3hr, 5hr or 24hr versions.

Some people don't like travelling far, so those in the south won't support the northern circuits and vice versa, so you end up with a regional divide - those contesting Croft, Oulton, Knockhill and Anglesey, and occassionally they all meet up at Silverstone in the middle.

Sometimes time has passed, people have moved on, and it could well be to reamalgamate some of these championships if people are prepared to talk to each other, possibly accept some compromises, and possibly eat some humble pie - but there is the danger that the reasons that caused the rival camps to separate are still there and it was a silly idea to unify the series.

[AnnoyedMoose]

Originally Posted by tocatrucky

aFor the layman non-followerof the car, it seems the grid lining up is idetical to the one the chequered flag waved before on. BRSCCC for example have the following:

How many laymen (Dennis and Doris) are there though? At the end of the day club racing is aimed at the competitors and their friends/family not casual spectators who don't understand the classes. What attracts competitors to the grids is the most important thing.

[Adam43]

This is true. Dennis and Doris, if they are there, are the Mum and Dad of Declan in the no. 43 MX5.

A lot of these championships are more the equivalent of a Sunday five a side league. A more expensive ball and hopefully there competitors didn’t get wasted the night before.

[Greem]

Big grids with good racing is good. Big grids with poor racing can also be good.

What's unacceptable, to me, is endurance series with really fancy cars where they don't even have enough to half fill the grid. I marshalled at Donington at the weekend for a BARC meeting where Britcar had their Endurance Championship (2hr race) and Trophy (2x 50 minute races), and a collection of Classic Touring Car Racing Club races. All of these had big grids - between 25 and 36 cars - with really good, enjoyable racing and some cracking showboating on a wet track.

They also had the Praga Cup. They do a 50 minute race on each day. They could be really interesting... but NINE entrants? For 50 minutes? And they didn't all finish - 1 retirement in R1, 2 in R2. I know these folks pay a hefty entry fee, and the cars are pretty impressive looking & fancy and reasonably quick, but the enormous spread of ability between the Pro & Am drivers means they get so spread out it's like watching a test session.

I know it's always been this way - hell, Britcar were almost in single figures at one point - but it drives people away, and it's not like there are three or four competing ShinyCar championships vying for the same people.

Rant over. Tip your waitress etc etc

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Greem

They also had the Praga Cup. They do a 50 minute race on each day. They could be really interesting... but NINE entrants? For 50 minutes?

The Pragas ran with the main Endurance field the last couple of years. That worked fine. I don't think there has been a Praga field much above 10 this season. They should roll it back into the Endurance field as its own class.

[tocatrucky]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

The Pragas ran with the main Endurance field the last couple of years. That worked fine. I don't think there has been a Praga field much above 10 this season. They should roll it back into the Endurance field as its own class.

I believe Praga Cars are bankrolling it entirely as thet dudn't like their inexperienced drivers in expensive carsgetting punted off by shed built M3s. It all seems strange how their business model works in general. Based off plane sales?

In other news, BRSCC launches yet another new one-make championship for Audi TTs this time.

[pimmy]

They're trying to get a BMW 1 Series cup off the ground as well.

[The Fat Clerk]

Don't the 750MC already run one?

[kipper]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

Don't the 750MC already run one?

Yes.

[tocatrucky]

Anybody else see the second new Audi TT championship announced for 2023? This one is under the Classic VW Cup banner which itself runs under BRSCC. its Fourth organising club inside the last 6 years since the CVWC founder left/was pushed out.



So BRSCC will be presiding over two new Audi TT series but both on separate grids on different weekends. Farcical state of affairs.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by tocatrucky

BRSCC will be presiding over two new Audi TT series but both on separate grids on different weekends. Farcical state of affairs.

To be fair, they won't be on separate grids - the BRSCC confirmed a few weeks back that the Classic VWs (including the older Audi TTs), the new Audi TT series in addition to their new Mazda MX5 Mk. 4; BMW 1 Series; and Renault Clio/Megane series will all race on the same grid in 2023. They'll only have their own grids if/when they generate enough cars to justify it.

[Derwent]

Spectators don't really like one make races. Sadly clubs and drivers do. There was a meeting at Croft last year with only MX5s and Focus's racing. About 4 lots of MC5s having three races and 2 lots of Fords having 3 races.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Derwent

Spectators don't really like one make races. Sadly clubs and drivers do.

One make is OK, one model has become old. Bring back proper prod-saloons, multi-class, big grids and lump as many single car races into it as possible. Same for road sports.

I'll make an exception for proper Caterham racing, though, that tends to be a ball.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Derwent

Spectators don't really like one make races. Sadly clubs and drivers do. There was a meeting at Croft last year with only MX5s and Focus's racing. About 4 lots of MC5s having three races and 2 lots of Fords having 3 races.

As a spectator in the 70's & 80's I used to love the one make series (Metro's Renault 5's, Fiesta's etc), they used to offer some good close racing. Also, having raced a Mini 7 briefly in the early 80's, their racing also always seemed popular, but maybe this was more so with friends/relatives of the people actually racing the cars.
Maybe times have changed?

[Plantagenet]

Not waning to be deliberately combative, but I'm afraid i don't think spectator preferences have any bearing these days given their numbers at club meetings are so low and will have hardly have any bearing on the economics of running race meetings (this is clearly different from things such as Goodwood or the Classic where gate receipts will form such a large component of the revenue).

The key for club series to survive is getting numbers on grids and clearly this seems to be the preferred approach for drivers of caterhams, mx-5s, boxters etc. There do seem to be a lot of them though catering for a racing crowd that will likely shrink again in '23 so i do expect some further consolidation in future.

[Adam43]

Sunday five a side football does not consider the spectators, it is primarily there for the competitors. It is the same for club Motorsport. They are paying for it. And the market for spectating club Motorsport is generally limited to our mothers and other family!

FWIW, I prefer a mixed grid, makes it more fun as a competitor. But I also see that others might like the same machinery thing. Good to cater for both.

[abw]

Originally Posted by fergus_r

... it's the norm for BRSCC Caterhams to have at least four of their championships in action over a weekend.

Now that the Caterhams are with BARC they are due to have a meeting at Donington with not only all of the 'official' Caterham championships, but also Caterham Gradautes and CSCC Magnificent Sevens!

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Adam43

FWIW, I prefer a mixed grid, makes it more fun as a competitor. But I also see that others might like the same machinery thing. Good to cater for both.

Where an MR2 Trophy or EP3 Civic Cup or City Car Cup or BMW 125i Cup or Renault Clio Cup car is eligible for that championship, it's also eligible for mixed races, like multi-category enduros. So that seems to strike a good balance.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by abw

Now that the Caterhams are with BARC they are due to have a meeting at Donington with not only all of the 'official' Caterham championships, but also Caterham Gradautes and CSCC Magnificent Sevens!

They are a hoot to drive. I can see why they are popular.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Where an MR2 Trophy or EP3 Civic Cup or City Car Cup or BMW 125i Cup or Renault Clio Cup car is eligible for that championship, it's also eligible for mixed races, like multi-category enduros. So that seems to strike a good balance.

Best of both worlds