Aston Martin - Cosworth F1 engine

[knighty]

AM & Cosworth F1......... FFS get a room!!!!!!

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/m...rmula-1-engine

All I'm seeing is Andy Palmer and Christian Horner flirting with each other in the press, now Bruce Wood from Cosworth is joining it....pass the sick-bucket!......just get on with it!!!!!

Really from my side, every last Cosworth F1 engine has done nothing special, normally ok in performance, but trimmed down too light and therefore too flimsy as a fully stressed chassis structure, and reject far too much heat requiring big radiators and therefore poor aero performance back in the V8 NA days

Cosworth have no recent turbocharging experience in high-level motorsport......if I was Andy Palmer I'd be knocking on Ilmors door and doing a deal with Mario Illien, as they have recent F1 turbo experience, not to mention IRL-turbo experience.......I think Cosworth are a shadow of their former selves and trading on their past.

[BSchneiderFan]

The only way to open up F1 engine supply to independent manufacturers like Cosworth and Ilmor (and Zytek and Mugen and maybe Roush) is to simplify the spec drastically and introduce a price cap, and I don’t think it will happen.

[S griffin]

It’s a shame we don’t see more of those names. There was that PURE Turbo engine that never got off the ground

[JHamilton]

I can't get the article up for some reason, but how would Merc feel about this?

[Graz]

I'm sceptical about Aston Martin doing F1 at all. They are a small company, not profitable (I think) and F1 isn't cheap. I think Andy Palmer has great plans but is it all talk for publicity? I feel like I know the guy I've seen and heard him so much. I couldn't tell you who the previous AM head was. I really can't see how AM can afford F1, even with the likes of Cosworth.

[knighty]

According to the 2016 financial report (2017 is not released yet) the headline figures are

2016 actual revenue was £593.5M (up £101M from previous year)
2017 forecast revenue: £785-£812M
When the new DB11 went on sale sales grew 48% in first 3 months
Product investment £192M

2016 - But pre-tax loss of £162M - mostly due to investment in the DB11 R&D and tooling, and sterling fluctuation. Really I dont see this as a big deal as the DB11 is now selling like hot-cakes in the US and China.

Overall - AM are ripe for a bit of F1 engine action and could easily afford it, if the FIA make the new regs more sensibly priced and get rid of all the stupid and non-road-relevant stuff like exhaust generators......just a simple single or twin turbo engine.

Heres is the 2016 financial report web link for your info

https://www.astonmartin.com/en/live/...r-2016-results

Check out this link for a more realistic 2017 financial assessment.......AM sales up 75%, I admit profits arent great, but they have plenty of money for R&D investment, and this is where the F1 engine budget would come from.

https://www.theguardian.com/business...-first-quarter

[bella]

remember there’s a uk government tax rebate for r&d investment, i’d assume any f1 endeavours would be covered under that.

[GT6]

Originally Posted by bella

remember there’s a uk government tax rebate for r&d investment, i’d assume any f1 endeavours would be covered under that.

So for every 100m they spend they get 30 back in a tax rebate, and only if they actually pay any tax so that will still mean they will have spent 100m. Not sure they can afford it. They are doing well with gt cars at the moment probably best they stay with that.

[S griffin]

It would be good to have them in the championship, I think they won’t do worse than Honda, they will surely do better than that

[bella]

Originally Posted by GT6

So for every 100m they spend they get 30 back in a tax rebate, and only if they actually pay any tax so that will still mean they will have spent 100m. Not sure they can afford it. They are doing well with gt cars at the moment probably best they stay with that.

agree with you and knighty, it doesn't seem like a great business decision on the surface. which makes me wonder if there's something going on in the background that'd make more sense.

how many similarities are there with when lotus decided to get involved with f1 a few years back?

[wnut]

Aston Martin gets a whole lot of free press courtesy of the F1 press and associated media. They also get spin off credibility from the idea that they are capable of producing an F1 engine.
RBR are able to strengthen their negotiating position in the engine wars by touting that the correct regulation would bring Aston into the field, and may well achieve the RBR objective of introducing cheaper simpler engines into F1.

Not a useless exercise from either Aston Martin or RBR.

[steve_r]

RBR were talking a while ago about producing their own engines. If RBR did go down that route, it would make perfect sense from both a technical and marketing perspective for a car manufacturer to get on board and for it to be a joint venture.

Who knows, AM and RBR might bring in Illmor or Cosworth in some capacity as well? That was being speculated here last summer:

https://thejudge13.com/2017/07/27/th...ir-own-engine/

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by wnut

Aston Martin gets a whole lot of free press courtesy of the F1 press and associated media. They also get spin off credibility from the idea that they are capable of producing an F1 engine.
RBR are able to strengthen their negotiating position in the engine wars by touting that the correct regulation would bring Aston into the field, and may well achieve the RBR objective of introducing cheaper simpler engines into F1.

Not a useless exercise from either Aston Martin or RBR.

The problem with that is 1) the uninformed public has no idea what it takes to make an F1 engine and does not have the means to write the rules, 2) those who write the rules know what is entailed in building an engine and guessing they can tell window dressing when they see it, and 3) the current manufacturers know AM is not capable of dropping everything in to building an engine any time soon. So all of their bravado to the media wastes ink but doesn't get them a second closer to actually making an engine. Something they don't even do in their road cars any longer.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

So all of their bravado to the media wastes ink but doesn't get them a second closer to actually making an engine. Something they don't even do in their road cars any longer.

Unless anything has changed very recently, AM designed and produced it's latest V12 at their engine plant in Cologne, Germany which they opened in about 2004. AM does, however, use AMG electronics and drivetrain, but the engine is theirs alone.

They also use AMG's V8s on smaller engined models.

[knighty]

so AM could re-brand the Mercedes F1 engine and give it to RedBull!.......erm.......I dont see that happening any time soon!

[Félix]

Originally Posted by knighty

Cosworth have no recent turbocharging experience in high-level motorsport......if I was Andy Palmer I'd be knocking on Ilmors door and doing a deal with Mario Illien, as they have recent F1 turbo experience, not to mention IRL-turbo experience.......I think Cosworth are a shadow of their former selves and trading on their past.

If you were Andy Palmer, you'd know about their previous modern turbo project because you'd have commissioned it around 2013. Cosworth NV.

Also, their 1.6 F1 straight-four, HK, got into a road car that almost made it to production.

---

To me, Cosworth are not that bad; better recent track record than AER or Judd, behind TEOS-Mecachrome (they engineered the P.U.R.E project) or the design talent at VAG or BMW; but outside of hiring a genial free agent like Mario Illien, I can't think of better solutions.

[coppice]

The sad thing is that the ludicrously prescriptive rules effectively mean that different firms spend gazillions on making effectively the same engine. Sorry, power unit..... Granted, some do it better than others but look what we have had running against each other at the same time in F1 history - V8s ,10s and 12s ; in line 4s, V6s , V8s, V and Flat 12s, H16 . And now ? Tedious little droney V6 - ironic that affordable road cars offer more choice .

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by coppice

The sad thing is that the ludicrously prescriptive rules effectively mean that different firms spend gazillions on making effectively the same engine. Sorry, power unit..... Granted, some do it better than others but look what we have had running against each other at the same time in F1 history - V8s ,10s and 12s ; in line 4s, V6s , V8s, V and Flat 12s, H16 . And now ? Tedious little droney V6 - ironic that affordable road cars offer more choice .

Don’t forget the glorious BRM V16! 1.5-litres, each cylinder a little jewel.

[coppice]

You're right - God knows how I forgot that beast . I'll raise you a W12 though, and for completeness , a straight six , straight 8 and a Flat 8 (was it a flat 8 in the Porsche ? I must check )

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by coppice

The sad thing is that the ludicrously prescriptive rules effectively mean that different firms spend gazillions on making effectively the same engine. Sorry, power unit..... Granted, some do it better than others but look what we have had running against each other at the same time in F1 history - V8s ,10s and 12s ; in line 4s, V6s , V8s, V and Flat 12s, H16 . And now ? Tedious little droney V6 - ironic that affordable road cars offer more choice .

Adrian Newey basically said this in his book. Very little technology carries over to road cars, and road car manufacturers aren't constrained by the same type of regulations as racing engines, so it's all a bit pointless.

Open engine formula please!

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by coppice

You're right - God knows how I forgot that beast . I'll raise you a W12 though, and for completeness , a straight six , straight 8 and a Flat 8 (was it a flat 8 in the Porsche ? I must check )

Stuttgart certainly ran a flat-8 in sportscars; I can’t remember off the top of my head if they raced one in F1 as well.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Stuttgart certainly ran a flat-8 in sportscars; I can’t remember off the top of my head if they raced one in F1 as well.

Porsche 804 F1 of 1962 was a flat 8.

Time for a picture, nice little diecast model

[knighty]

Cough! - back on topic.......AM are rather serious about investing in the future

https://news.sky.com/story/aston-mar...ision-11228847

.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Félix

If you were Andy Palmer, you'd know about their previous modern turbo project because you'd have commissioned it around 2013. Cosworth NV.

Also, their 1.6 F1 straight-four, HK, got into a road car that almost made it to production.

---

To me, Cosworth are not that bad; better recent track record than AER or Judd, behind TEOS-Mecachrome (they engineered the P.U.R.E project) or the design talent at VAG or BMW; but outside of hiring a genial free agent like Mario Illien, I can't think of better solutions.

The problem with AM's last LMP1 engine and chassis was they tried to do it all on the cheap, in-house, and far too quickly......and the whole program was subsequently a crock of.

Prodrive had inexperienced people designing the engine and chassis aero, didnt plan properly and paid the price by publicly humiliating both Prodrive and AM together at once.......the lesson learned, plan properly and get good external contractors to do the job properly, then AM could market it like they do so well on all products.

but you need to carefully select the correct external contractors, I certainly agree Cosworth would do a better job than Prodrive, but if it were me I'd go straight over to Ilmor for an F1 engine project.......it was Newey that pushed Renault to go see his old mate Mario Illien is how Ilmor got involved with Renault, but then Renault gave Ilmor the cold shoulder treatment.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Adrian Newey basically said this in his book. Very little technology carries over to road cars, and road car manufacturers aren't constrained by the same type of regulations as racing engines, so it's all a bit pointless.

Open engine formula please!

It does need to be borne in mind, though, that the primary reason that Mercedes started, and to a certain respect remain, streets ahead of their PU manufacturing rivals is because they had been working on similar technology for their road going vehicles for years before the new PUs were mandated for F1. Many of the engineers and technicians who joined the engine facility to produce the current PUs actually came across from their truck and car divisions because they had been working along parallel lines.

Don't forget that Renault, with the backing of Ferrari, persuaded the FIA to delay the introduction of these PUs by a year because they were no-where near ready, whilst Mercedes had been well on target. And even then, Mercedes' units were almost bullet-proof, whilst the Renaults couldn't even get out of the garages for the pre-season testing sessions.