So, you never visit Vintage Sports Car Club meetings?

[eclectic]

As the cost of renting the circuits seems to rise every year, the VSCC cannot afford large losses at small venues, so, perennially the VSCC discusses how to attract more spectators to our meetings.

Please air your opinions and prejudices as to why you don't come to our meetings, or what might attract you.

Yes, I know, some people refer to us as "Old Boy Racers"!

Should we stick to what we do already?

Should we have more meetings with the HSCC?

Meetings like last year at Donnington, with demos of F1 Ferraris?

Anyway, please air your comments...........

[Tim Falce]

Reasons for not attending
1: Don't know when they are on, try advertising
2: Cost
3: I tend to find watching racing boring

Aside the last 2 reasons, I would be more inclined to watch historic cars than others as I tend to find the racing more interesting than other forms of motor racing

[ScottDay]

I watch the Historics, mainly Historic Formula Fords.

[ScottDay]

Nothing wrong with being " an old boy racer "

[jminsh]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by eclectic [/i


Should we have more meetings with the HSCC?

Definately not i did the joint meeting at silverstone this year in 2 cars with the HSCC and never have i seen so much oil thrown out of cars which apperently are working perfectly .

Its just not safe for cars which expect a limited amount of grip.

[ScottDay]

Is it not expected that OLDER cars may leak oil!

[HiRich]

I attend a couple of VSCC events each year with the F3-500s - normally Mallory & Cadwell.

First, the core product is fine:
- A good mix of cars within a broad theme,
- Drivers who might politely be called 'intrepid', more honestly "utterly, utterly barking"
- Good to great on-track action.
At Cadwell this year we had some 24-litre Napier lighting up its rear wheels up the Mountain (not over the top, he was spinning up the rears whilst still climbing), whilst being harassed by a couple of tiny Morgan 3-wheelers. Very memorable, and the crowd in the Mountain grandstand were mighty impressed.

The issue is therefore with the marketing and promotion:
- Raising awareness
- Encouraging them to attend
- Giving them a great day out when they do attend (so they will want to come back)

There's a lot of work involved in this, and more than I can write here. Most importantly, though, you have to deal with the total problem. One initiative (like ads in the local press) will deliver some results, but will not release all the long-term benefits.

I'll keep an eye on this thread, and once I've recovered from this heavy cold, I'll PM you with more information.

[jminsh]

Scott

There's a difference between an oil leak and a total loss oil system, you obviously havn't seen some of the vintage racers

[JimW]

Originally posted by eclectic
As the cost of renting the circuits seems to rise every year, the VSCC cannot afford large losses at small venues, so, perennially the VSCC discusses how to attract more spectators to our meetings.

Please air your opinions and prejudices as to why you don't come to our meetings, or what might attract you.

Yes, I know, some people refer to us as "Old Boy Racers"!

Should we stick to what we do already?

Should we have more meetings with the HSCC?

Meetings like last year at Donnington, with demos of F1 Ferraris?

Anyway, please air your comments...........

I enjoy a VSCC meeting or two every year (as a marshal) so perhaps am not the right person to say what you should change. However, I think that some people find a complete day of vintage cars a bit much. So if you really want to broaden the potential pool of spectators, then yes, cuddle up to the HSCC or anyone else running "sympathetic" machinery. Also how about getting a single vintage race in an otherwise contemporary race meeting? Might draw in a few different people to new meetings.

The Donington meeting with demos worked well from the outside but I gather that the VSCC did not really gather the experiment to their hearts? However, if that it is what it takes to be able to afford a date at Donington, perhaps they will have to live with it.

Regards

Jim

[RAP]

I try to go to at least one VSCC meeting a year. I'm not convinced about mixing with HSCC but if sharing costs helps then ok. I think the main problem is that there are so many higher profile historic meetings that the racing car entry at VSCC meetings can look pretty thin. There's not much can be done about this except money to attract entries and promote the meetings. Seems to me that VSCC have to decide if they are race promoters of "big" events or run members metings!

[Maisie]

I think mixing with other series would do both sides a world of good. I've enjoyed the few VSCC meetings I've been to, but it's hard to understand what it's all about, or to find out when it's on or what to expect if you're not in a certain loop.

I was chatting to the drivers of the 2 Legends that took part in the Bentley Drivers' Club meeting I was at, when the commentators came over, absolutely stunned and intrigued about what these little cars were! Now, it seems to me a shame that people who know their racing stuff should be deprived of cracking racing going on outside their immediate circle, just as it is a shame that the average clubby spectator has no idea VSCC meetings take place.

A little cross-pollination seems to be in order. Ideally for me would be for the VSCC to maybe have a demo race as part of a large series such as BTCC or F3/GT to open the eyes of the racegoing public.

Alternatively, it would also be nice to have a greater mix of championships at club meetings.

[TimD]

Ah, but bear in mind we're a strange lot in the world of ancient racing cars, and the VSCC meetings are the only opportunity we've got to indulge our passion. It is very much a club, too. The race meetings are as much a social occasion as a race meeting. The practical upshot is that the members have to be very carefully enthused about the prospect of sharing their track time with cars that they don't necessarily want to pay money to see.

I would be inclined to say that guest races are probably the way forward. Yes, the VSCC could perhaps put on a demonstration race at other, more mainstream events, but by the same token, any other cars ought to come to the VSCC meetings as guest races in return.

The big problems are recognition and expectation. The average racegoer could probably spot a Bentley, but might be hard-pressed to assign some other identification to the Lagonda or Alvis or Riley lined up next to it. Some sort of popularisation needs to take place there - and I don't pretend to know how to do that. The other thing is expectation. The mention of the Bentley-Napier dicing with three-wheeler Morgans illustrates this. It's quite a regular sight at VSCC meetings and yet most "modern" racegoers will have no idea that such machines exist, let alone race. The amused delight I've seen on the faces of unsuspecting race fans when the three-wheel Morgan club have come out to play at modern meetings suggests to me that the ground is fertile for gaining converts. Tell the world that these machines are raced and raced hard. Tell them that there are cars good for quite indecent speeds, and wholeheartedly agree that the pilots are truly barking, and they will come, I am certain.

What I can confidently say doesn't work is the exercises in high-profile demonstrations. The Ferrari incident at Donington this season is a case in point. I heard of not one single person who came to the VSCC Donington specifically to see the Ferraris and by contrast heard an awful lot of less than gruntled comment from VSCC members who felt that valuable track time and paddock space had been taken up with what was effectively a promotional show.

One final thing - there is a case to suggest that there is less of a problem than might be imagined as regards attendance. Mallory VSCC last year was frankly crowded, and the biggest attendance I've seen at Mallory Park in years. Similarly the Itala trophy is one of the better attended meetings in Silverstone's calendar. This is not to say for one moment that more souls through the gates will not be welcome but perhaps the VSCC could be surprised by the quality of their attendance figures in comparison with many other organising clubs.

[RAP]

I recall that when I used to go fairly regularly to the July VSCC Silverstone in the '80s there would be a feature race for one make. I recall Bugatti and, I think, ERA and Alfa Romeo. The entries were superb - clearly a great deal of effort had been made to get cars out. I havn't seen such races in recent years but maybe they are still held at meetings other than those I've been to. I think this is the sort of thing that VSCC should do. Such races provide a promotable feature in the specialist press but remain true to the core values and spirit of the VSCC.

[eclectic]

Thanks for all your feedback, I have already had an email from one of the Committee Members of the VSCC saying that your opinions were very apposite and appropriate at present, so, please keep the suggestions flowing!

[Craig]

Originally posted by TimD
What I can confidently say doesn't work is the exercises in high-profile demonstrations. The Ferrari incident at Donington this season is a case in point. I heard of not one single person who came to the VSCC Donington specifically to see the Ferraris and by contrast heard an awful lot of less than gruntled comment from VSCC members who felt that valuable track time and paddock space had been taken up with what was effectively a promotional show.

I don't know what the 'Ferrari Incident' was (can you expand?) but I will say that I thoroughly enjoyed my visit to the 2001 Richard Seaman Trophy Meeting, at Donington, which I only attended to see the Auto Union/Audi roadshow. If there were more of that sort of thing I would likely attend a few more similar meetings.

[David McKinney]

Craig
The question whose answer would surely be most valuable to VSCC decision-makers is, did you enjoy the rest of the programme enough to want to attend future meetings with no add-ons?
That admittedly applies more to the Ferrari experiment than the Auto Union one, where at least the cars were from the same period as is catered for by the VSCC.
I presume the club stages these extras not with the short-term aim of merely getting a few more people through the gate, but rather in the hope that newcomers will like the rest of the show so much they'll come back again

[Craig]

I have to confess that I don't really have a huge interest in anything earlier than the early sixties so, no, I suspect that I wouldn't return on the basis of that one attendance.

However, once upon a time, I would only attend the odd BTCC meeting - as single seaters and sportscars that the really should focus on cars with some historic value - maybe try and run with the TGP or Boss Series? held little interest - but, through exposure to the many other formulae and series, I would now attend all manner of race meetings.

Perhaps what is needed with the VSCC meetings - if they're serious about getting people through the doors - is to keep exposing people to their cars. I do not know what the Ferrari experiment was but I would agree Maybe the CTCRC or some other classic racing series even?

I don't profess to know enough about the VSCC and it's setup to offer any valuable contribution - all I know is that I like the opportunity to see such machines as the Auto Union cars. If a similar event was held which featured, say the Mercedes W196 or one of the early seventies Tyrrells, then I would certainly attend again. It is up to the VSCC committee members to decide whether the attendance of myself, and any others with similar views, is actually adding anything to their meeting.

[macca]

I've been to a fair few VSCC meetings and the odd hillclimb over the years, generally ones that have been well-advertised, and often ones that have some relevant 'extra', such as a good 1950s GP race as well as pre-war, or a demo run of something like a BRM V16 or the Alfa Bimotore.

Some of the races have seemed a bit thin too, maybe they could push their members harder or give them more incentive to take part in every meeting.

The most off-putting thing to me has always been the track commentators. They sound like amateurs, they chat away without necessarily informing the spectators, they often don't seem to know anything about motor-racing history outside of their narrow world (whereas a lot of the spectators tend to be quite widely informed), and there does seem to be a bit of an excessive concentration on Brooklands-related cars and handicap races.

(controversial NB: Brooklands got it WRONG in originally trying to run car-racing like horse-racing, with handicapping and drivers in silks, and the handicap element should be sharply reduced or even quietly forgotten IMHO; continental Grand Prix racing was what moved the sport forward.)

So: more advertising, special demos (as racing speeds - this means YOU, Auto-Union), better commentators, more scratch racing, and yet more advertising.

Paul Mackness

[PaulSands]

It's not just the VSCC that has this problem is it. I would think that the general public would be more inclined to attend an event that was full of some of the exotic machinery that graces VSCC events. I'm sure a lot is down to local publicity as much as anything. Your average punter is probably not going to travel much more than half an hour to an event so there needs to be a concerted publicity effort in the local rags in the surrounding areas. It's only the insane among us that travel the distances to see or take part racing of all kinds
I'm sure club members or supporters could submit pieces to local papers sports desks, with an accompanying photo, which could act as free advertising.
Once at the circuit maybe a more controlled and coralled paddock would help...inthis image concious world image is everything and if things are presented correctly people feel they are getting better value for money.
How about during the lunch break spectators could be given circuit rides in some of the more stately examples of the cars present?
Personally I attended Silverstone, Cadwell, Donington & Mallory

[TimD]

I have to answer the point about handicaps. Yes, they are confusing to the spectator who is not used to them, but given the cars which make up the bulk of the membership, they are well nigh essential to avoid processional racing in many of the events.

Most of the VSCC's machines are, by definition, vintage sports cars. They are road registered, carry touring equipment in many cases, are strictly limited as to the modifications which can be carried out to them. But on the other hand, a number of historic specials compete with some extraordinary mods. (The thinking behind this is that you're allowed to race a car that was modified in period, but the restrictions on modern modification reduces the temptation for some competitive member to chop up an original old car for a performance advantage.)

But this means that a 130mph Bentley special may find itself sharing a grid with an Austin 7 or a Gwynne 8 which will struggle to achieve 50mph down the straight. There are three options for the organising club: allow a scratch race and see the Bentley sail off into the distance with the rest of the field bobbing along in its wake, set up a whole new race for 50mph-class cars and watch the casual spectators wander off to the bar whilst waiting for the cars to come around again, or run a handicap and ask the commentators to talk up the efforts of the minnows to keep ahead of the heavy metal which is setting the pace in an effort to catch 'em!

A well-run handicap can be exhilarating to watch. Don't forget that the ultimate goal of the handicapper is to see the entire field cross the finishing line at once!

Whilst I fully accept that Brooklands' oval racing was something of a dead end in motorsport and that European GP racing proved to be more enduring, it is also true that you only got one GP per nation per year as a rule, and that GP and track cars represent a very small minority of the competing membership of the VSCC. By retaining a mixture of handicaps and scratch races, the club has the best chance of giving the membership a competitive day out.

[JimW]

Originally posted by TimD
I have to answer the point about handicaps. Yes, they are confusing to the spectator who is not used to them,. . . By retaining a mixture of handicaps and scratch races, the club has the best chance of giving the membership a competitive day out.

I quite agree with what you say but this thread started out asking how to attract more spectators to VSCC meetings. As I said above I enjoy marshalling an occasional VSCC meeting but, honestly, that is in spite of the handicap races. Dull, dull, dull. It is the vroom I enjoy in motorsport and the sight of nice cars, but not the technical appreciation required to get the best from watching a handicap race.

So you need to be very clear; do you want to attract more spectators (most of whom will be ignorant and wanting to see vroom and interesting cars) or do you want to attract more VSCC members to compete? Both answers could be right but they will have a strong tendency to be mutually exclusive.

Bluntly, turning up of noses at the Ferrari activities such as at Donington earlier this season will achieve neither. I enjoyed both sorts of activity at that meeting and I suspect that there were lots of other people who did so as well.

"The right crowd and no crowding" will ensure that activities retreat into a niche. Fine if that attitude allows people to do what they want, but it will be no use complaining then that larger crowds cannot be attracted.

Regards

Jim

[eclectic]

Good to have so much response, Great stuff! Keep it up!

[D-Type]

The first thing is I need to know about a meeting. In my case I could be informed by a posting on this and similar forums or by an advertisment in Motor Sport and similar magazines.

If I hear of a meeting and am thinking of going, I would like to know:
Where? Obviously
When? Date and start time
What? Classes of cars and possible star turns
How much?

If the information isn't in the posting or advertisment it needs to be on your website.

I don't have a problem with combining with the HSCC. They cover cars that are over about 40-50 years old whereas pvt's are 60-70 and vintage 70-80. The only difference is the HSCC are generally after I was born. They're all nostalgic and to the uninitiated they are all 'old' cars except some are older than others.

A themed demo would appeal, and might attract me.

When I get to the circuit, I expect to be entertained. i.e. close racing with a bit of "vroom" as JimW so eloquently put it.

I also like to be informed. Explanatory commentary. Programme that describes cars e.g. not "1927 Austin 747cc"
but "1927 Austin 7 Ulster 747cc" . As I've never attended a VSCC meeting i don't know how you tackle these.

Last year i went to an HSCC meeting at Brands and to the Goodwood Revival, both for the first time and both prompted by entries on this forum. So next year I might make it.

[PaulSands]

I got the 2003 schedule for the VSCC from the pages of Motor Sport.
You should subscribe to the newsletter over at their website as you are sent dates, links etc. on a periodic basis.
Most clubs/championships have comprehensive websites containing dates and often timetables for meetings so if you are interested in a particular form of racing the info is all there.
I suppose the question really is not how much do I want to go see a meeting but how much do they want me to come and see their meeting (this isn't targetted at the VSCC but every club)

Touching on a point above..whereas I enjoy the VSCC meets I get more out of the HSCC as I am seeing cars racing that I originally saw as a small child so the nostalgia factor is immense whereas the older VSCC cars I have no emotional attachment to. That's just a matter of personal taste though

[TimD]

Jim, I think you misunderstand where I'm coming from. I want to see casual visitors enthused about what they're seeing but there has to be a point where the people who are sufficiently committed to have gone out and bought a car, gained a licence, and paid their subs have to be given value for money too. The art is in giving a canvas upon which the members can perform, but making sure the commentators and programme writers are sufficiently well informed to pick out the points of interest and to enthuse the willing viewer.

Because if the sports car driving competitors give it up as a bad job, we're all in trouble.

Paul hit the nail on the head. The appeal of the HSCC is the nostalgia factor. The cars are easily recognisable and the spectators aren't required to research very hard to know what to expect. D-Type's rail against the traditional VSCC programme is one I can relate to profoundly. a 1089cc Riley could be any one of a dozen different models and even the afficionado has trouble with what is a very anachronistic affectation by the programme compilers.

As I said before, recognition is key. The VSCC programme has a good precis of what star cars to expect at the start of each meeting but perhaps this could be expanded and broken up so that the paragraphs on each race could actually be seen next to the entry list for that event.