BMW Group C car?

The359 · 27 Oct 2010, 20:40 (Ref:2781318)

BMW recently opened their warehouse at BMW Classic to the public, and it includes a treasure of classic road and racing BMWs.

But interestingly there are also models of cars that were apparently never built. This photograph includes two BMW-powered sports cars, the one on the left I do not recognize, but the one on the right appears to be a Gr.6 Chevron.

The interesting thing to me though is the model in the background. It appears to be an early 90s Group C style car, or possibly a future iteration of the BMW GTP that never came to fruition? Does anyone have any information on what this car is, or at least what it was supposed to be?

EDIT: I've found another photo from the front which shows it's clearly an early 90s Group C design, from this collection of photos.

stuart thompson · 27 Oct 2010, 22:30 (Ref:2781383)

Although not too sure on the GpC car I thouroughly enjoyed those links.

Nick6 · 27 Oct 2010, 22:33 (Ref:2781385)

I see a bit of Lola in it.

dj4monie · 27 Oct 2010, 23:51 (Ref:2781412)

I see no trace of Lola if you're talking about the scale model in the back of the picture. Since the wing structure is separated from the body, this is likely a early-mid 90's Group C design.

stuart thompson · 28 Oct 2010, 00:01 (Ref:2781414)

I think the one on the left was a March design that found it's way onto the hill climb scene.
I'm pretty sure the one on the right is a Chevron.

deggis · 28 Oct 2010, 00:37 (Ref:2781422)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The359

EDIT: I've found another photo from the front which shows it's clearly an early 90s Group C design, from this collection of photos.

From there: "I was curious about this model as it looks like a late Group C 3.5L mockup. Obviously this race program was still-born. Does anyone know what this it? Our host at the BMW Group Classic wasn't sure."

CTD · 28 Oct 2010, 05:24 (Ref:2781470)

It looks like a Coupe version of "Lumpy":
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/tomlumpy.html
Maybe it was an BMW version of the GT1 rules? (like Toyota GT1, Mercedes CLR and Porsche 911 GT1), eventhough the wing mounting doesn't support that.

JAG · 28 Oct 2010, 16:26 (Ref:2781710)

The livery is late 80's, early 90's while the larger double element rear wings only became popular after the XJR-14.

dj4monie · 30 Oct 2010, 23:16 (Ref:2782740)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAG

The livery is late 80's, early 90's while the larger double element rear wings only became popular after the XJR-14.

Your correct that is late 80's/early 90's paint work/stickers/decals. BMW NA used this same design on the March/BMW powered cars that Hobbs, Davey Jones and of course John Andretti wrecked at Road America -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKxZIJ6BTCo

Slightly off topic -

But this should further debunk the notion that 2.0L Turbocharged engines will actually lap La Sarthe slower, nothing could be further from the truth. Mid 80's 2.0L Turbo BMW DOHC = 700hp in endurance trim, 1100+hp in Williams F1 qualifying trim. If its believed the diesels are around 700hp, then better turbos, direct injection, lighter alloys, etc, getting that kind of power will be easy as taking candy from a baby and its not fair to compare AER to the might of the biggest OEM's in the world.

deggis · 31 Oct 2010, 00:01 (Ref:2782750)

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj4monie

But this should further debunk the notion that 2.0L Turbocharged engines will actually lap La Sarthe slower, nothing could be further from the truth. Mid 80's 2.0L Turbo BMW DOHC = 700hp in endurance trim, 1100+hp in Williams F1 qualifying trim. If its believed the diesels are around 700hp, then better turbos, direct injection, lighter alloys, etc, getting that kind of power will be easy as taking candy from a baby and its not fair to compare AER to the might of the biggest OEM's in the world.

What? What makes you think 700 hp is achievable with the 2011 boost limits and air restrictors?

MulsanneMike · 31 Oct 2010, 01:51 (Ref:2782769)

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Your correct that is late 80's/early 90's paint work/stickers/decals. BMW NA used this same design on the March/BMW powered cars that Hobbs, Davey Jones and of course John Andretti wrecked at Road America -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKxZIJ6BTCo

Slightly off topic -

But this should further debunk the notion that 2.0L Turbocharged engines will actually lap La Sarthe slower, nothing could be further from the truth. Mid 80's 2.0L Turbo BMW DOHC = 700hp in endurance trim, 1100+hp in Williams F1 qualifying trim. If its believed the diesels are around 700hp, then better turbos, direct injection, lighter alloys, etc, getting that kind of power will be easy as taking candy from a baby and its not fair to compare AER to the might of the biggest OEM's in the world.

Leaving out the fact that the 2011 engines will be restricted with an inlet restrictor (and this is the historic method the ACO has used to level performance between different engine aspiration, cylinders, and capacity since 1994 or so?) to around 550 hp. Never mind what the could do unrestricted, facts are they've got that little resctrictor between unhindered airflow and each cylinder. So yes, I'm extremely confident we'll immediately see lap times in the region of 15 seconds off the pace compared to 2010.

chernaudi · 31 Oct 2010, 02:08 (Ref:2782772)

We may see that 10-15 second drop off at Le Mans, but in the ALMS, we have cars that have 2011 spec engines in them (pre-2011 LMP2 engines), and they were almost as fast as the bigger engined LMP1s at most tracks--only the diesel were sure of out running them by a huge margin. And who knows what a new diesel will do--I'm betting on a 2000-2002 power figure similar to what the Audi R8 had, or at least in the ALMS from 2003-06.

JAG · 31 Oct 2010, 13:28 (Ref:2782939)

The only comparison I've seen so far is the 2011 Quifel ASM Zytek doing a 1.32 compared to the 1.30 of the ORECA 908 at Portimao.

At Le Mans I reckon the front running cars will be around 3.30-3.35 compared to 3.20-3.25 this year.

**Aysedasi** · 31 Oct 2010, 13:32 (Ref:2782942)

Need to get back on topic guys - this thread is supposed to be about a possible BMW Group C car.......

The Badger · 31 Oct 2010, 15:01 (Ref:2782966)

Shame that it didnt break cover , it may well have saved Group C for a few years more . Nice looking jammer .

Who designed this beast ?

Makes you wonder about , what never sees the light of day .

The Badger · 31 Oct 2010, 15:03 (Ref:2782968)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick6

I see a bit of Lola in it.

I see a bit of the old Benneton (Naninni year) in it !!!

chernaudi · 31 Oct 2010, 17:31 (Ref:2783024)

Maybe the cost is what scared BMW off, even though we don't know with 100% certianty what it was supposed to be. I sort of doubt that it was a 3.5 Group C car if it had the IMSA turbo engine--there was no equivalancy formula for turbo engines. It could've been a proposed IMSA GTP car that never saw the light of day.

If it was a 3.5 Group C car, an engine would've had to have been designed, unless it was a broad design study.

CTD · 31 Oct 2010, 17:49 (Ref:2783046)

If BMW had plans for Le Mans in the end 80's start 90's, but scared of the price, then the GT rules was a blessing from above!.
BMW must have been following Le Mans closely in the 90's before moving.

ptclaus98 · 1 Nov 2010, 01:42 (Ref:2783200)

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Your correct that is late 80's/early 90's paint work/stickers/decals. BMW NA used this same design on the March/BMW powered cars that Hobbs, Davey Jones and of course John Andretti wrecked at Road America -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKxZIJ6BTCo

Slightly off topic -

But this should further debunk the notion that 2.0L Turbocharged engines will actually lap La Sarthe slower, nothing could be further from the truth. Mid 80's 2.0L Turbo BMW DOHC = 700hp in endurance trim, 1100+hp in Williams F1 qualifying trim. If its believed the diesels are around 700hp, then better turbos, direct injection, lighter alloys, etc, getting that kind of power will be easy as taking candy from a baby and its not fair to compare AER to the might of the biggest OEM's in the world.

I'm sure you mean Brabham.

stuart thompson · 1 Nov 2010, 18:12 (Ref:2783589)

And for even more pedantry were 1.5 cc not 2.0

Victor_RO · 1 Nov 2010, 18:13 (Ref:2783594)

Although turbocharged 2-liter engines did win Le Mans back in the 1970s in the back of the Renault-Alpine A442 and the 936 Porsche.

templer · 3 Nov 2010, 16:22 (Ref:2784480)

I have sent BMW a mail with the inquiry to give me some infos about this model.
They told me they cannot tell me anything. So reason why.
I will try it further.

**Aysedasi** · 3 Nov 2010, 17:51 (Ref:2784522)

Well if they're going to put it on display, to all intents and purposes, it seems reasonable to expect people to ask questions about it!

MulsanneMike · 3 Nov 2010, 23:27 (Ref:2784662)

Quote:

Originally Posted by templer

I have sent BMW a mail with the inquiry to give me some infos about this model.
They told me they cannot tell me anything. So reason why.
I will try it further.

Sad truth is that more than likely some PR hack answered your email and they simply couldn't be bothered to do the necessary background (gee, ask a couple of questions, that's hard) on your inquiry.

templer · 4 Nov 2010, 06:22 (Ref:2784762)

You are right that the answer came from the PR-stuff. When you look at the different BMW-websites ( main page, historic page and so on) they have only one contact via their customer service. At the moment I have no contacts at BMW or at BMW motorsports that can help me. But as mentioned i will not give up.
And you are right. The PR-guys are absolutely awful. In 98 from 100 cases they don't want to help you.

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