Regulation (14.5?) Track Limits - Silv' Int'

[McMuttley]

Just wondered how many of us got the 'hairdryer' from the 'Clerk' on track limits this weekend at Silverstone?

I went wide at Copse twice in the HFF race (once as I had no choice as the 'lunger' inside clearly wasn't going to make it either) - still got a real roasting.

Another driver in our race got 2 points on his license for a slightly greater number of excursions at Copse - a tad harsh ?? - or are we experiencing a real clampdown on this?

When I slightly sarcastically (and probably stupidly) asked why he didnt also count me leaving the track at The Loop when I got T-boned off the track by some idiot thinking it must be flat in 3rd, the response was 'what you drivers do on the track is up to you, but if you drive outside the track limits its up to me'.

I trust this isnt the start of attention being focussed on relatively minor infringements (that are easy to spot for the Marshalls) instead of what should be more of a concen, car to car driving standards.

[Stephen Green]

For several years marshals have been asked to report drivers who repeatedly put 2 or 4 wheels over the white lines, what the Clerk does with that information is up to the Clerk of course. Many Clerks show the driver a black and white driver warning flag after three offences followed by a black flag for further excursions. Many Clerks I know mention this at the driver briefing so drivers are fore warned of the consequences.

Driving standards are generally not within the marshals remit as we are there to provide safety cover. Several series have their own DSO who may or may not position hi/herself at marshals posts.

I believe the blue book does say that you should drive between the white lines?

[McMuttley]

Thanks Stephen, wasnt having a pop at said Marshalls, appreciate very much why they are there and also appreciate that they only report (if they have to) what they factually see, not necessarily what they believe was right or wrong in the lead up. I was just curious to know (as it was my first race this year) if the track limits issue was being treated more seriously by the race officials (maybe following the attention it has had in F1 over the last year)?

In the meantime - must make greater efforts to make old car and ancient driver with limited talent corner like a McLaren!

[Stephen Green]

No problem, I'm glad it helped explain the situation for you. See you soon (from one old person to another)

[terence]

I have to say it's good to know that these driving antics are at last being punished,not before time.

[McMuttley]

Antics ! Running wide on the odd occaision whilst the 'antic' of not knowing the track or your own ability thus taking people / historic cars out goes un-punished - mmmmmm

Stop antics, yet leave driving standards un-addressed?????

[terence]

Problem that Officials have is deciding when 'going wide' is deliberate or not. I think you'll find that going wide at Copse,[an 'antic'made fashionable by BTCC!]
was being clamped down on rather a lot last year

[brickkicker]

I think the biggest problem is lack of consistancy, when I last raced at Snetterton we had a driver briefing at which time the CofC told us that if you run wide twice at the same corner you would get the black and white, once more and it was black flag. Someone asked about Sear corner and the answer was 'We expect you to run wide there and wouldnt taken any action unless you were too far off the track'. So at that meeting we had different rules for different corners and no specific limit to run to at Sear. Which means if one car does it everyone else will as otherwise your at a disadvantage.
The blue book clearly defines the track limits but until it is fairly and consistantly applied people will take advantage of that extra bit of track.

[terence]

Various corners at Snett have now been suitably 'kerbed 'to stop those looking for that 'advantage'. Ours is the black bit in between the white line's.

[brickkicker]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Ours is the black bit in between the white line's.

But you are allowed to use the green bits and the kerb as long as one tyre is still on the right side of the white line. This then raises the question of tracks which put floppy markers and large foam barriers a few inches from the apex of the corner. While they dont bother me I have seen a few people lose it in front of me and destroy there car by hitting one. Now technically it was in a place that could be used as track (as per blue book) but they destroyed the car not because they were trying to gain an advantage but due to losing control, if the foam barrier had not been there they would have spun and continued. In my view these are adding additional hazards to the track (not to mention the fact it was knocked into the middle of the track for all to hit and caused a red flag).

[terence]

Originally Posted by brickkicker

But you are allowed to use the green bits and the kerb as long as one tyre is still on the right side of the white line. This then raises the question of tracks which put floppy markers and large foam barriers a few inches from the apex of the corner. While they dont bother me I have seen a few people lose it in front of me and destroy there car by hitting one. Now technically it was in a place that could be used as track (as per blue book) but they destroyed the car not because they were trying to gain an advantage but due to losing control, if the foam barrier had not been there they would have spun and continued. In my view these are adding additional hazards to the track (not to mention the fact it was knocked into the middle of the track for all to hit and caused a red flag).

Sorry,thats NOT how it should be done.

[R59]

All of this argument, all of this conjecture.

Wait until the BTCC turn up and toss all of that to the wind.

Then we are asked to abide by the rules, the blue book.

[Stephen Green]

Transgressions of this rule are reported to the clerk of the course as normal, what the clerks or stewards do with this information is another matter although I can understand your frustration.

[Peter Mallett]

A bit of confusion between (a) and (b) below. At Brands last week many of us where oversteering over the kerb exiting Graham Hill Bend. It was good fun.

"14.5. Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt:

(a) the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not, and;

(b) a driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.

(c) Should a car leave the track for any reason and without prejudice to (d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.

(d) Repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of control over the car (such as leaving the track) will be reported to the Clerk of Course and may entail the imposition of penalties up to and including the exclusion of any driver concerned."

[brickkicker]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

(b) a driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.

My bumper fell off last week at Snetterton, this remained on the track until the end of the race. Therefore am I permited to go off as far as I like as my bumper is still in contact with the track. Im sure a legal wiz would be able to prove that on behalf of the touring cars. After all it doesnt specify that the part of the car still has to be attached to the car in question

[Peter Mallett]

Yes, that's my point. The implication is that even if three wheels are on the kerb, as long as one remains on or inside the white line, there is no infringement. What legal eagles call an implied term.

But taking a purposive approach to interpretation your scenario wouldn't work because a part of "the car" may be seen to be "the car in one piece", not the car in various locations arouind the circuit.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Yes, that's my point. The implication is that even if three wheels are on the kerb, as long as one remains on or inside the white line, there is no infringement.

Three-and-a-half wheels off doesn't count. . .

[terence]

I think that one thing that is escaping every ones attention is the fact that running just two wheels off is being observed at every corner.Dont even think about doing it three times.
As for BTCC,even Plato got annoyed at being told about his 'line' through Copse last year. Of course,his last lap 'Four Off' was completely unavoidable,wasn't it?

[Peter Mallett]

I disagree there. Every corner is being observed constantly. The only time a driver breeches the reg is when all four wheels are on the kerb/beyond the white line. And it must occur more than once. Remember they tell us exactly this at Spa. Its the same rule.