FCY, Code 60, local yellows, pit open? How to deal with cautions in US Sportscar

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by jasonjessica09

Mr. Hedlund as a driver what do you think of the problem with long full course yellows? As well as the prude reasons for them. A car stuck in the sand trap on a 4 mile circuit should not bring a FCY out at all. Is it something that has been talked about by ALMS officials? Drivers/Teams ? It is killing the show for the spectors.

I wish they could get them done faster, but because it's multi-class racing they *must* get the field in order first. Otherwise, at every caution you risk going a lap down to your own class leader based SOLEY on where and who the safety car decides to pickup first.

As for why they actually decide to go FCY, well.. I think in the ALMS races it's always for safety. In Europe they'll do a local caution and send the marshalls out into a gravel trap w/ some equipment to get the car back on track. That doesn't seem to happen here in the states (and I don't really blame them, you couldn't pay me enough to be a marshall and go out there to do that! have you seen some of these "professional" drivers? lol!).

It's a crappy problem.. but I haven't heard of a better solution or spent much time trying to come up with one myself.

-mike

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

I wish they could get them done faster, but because it's multi-class racing they *must* get the field in order first. Otherwise, at every caution you risk going a lap down to your own class leader based SOLEY on where and who the safety car decides to pickup first.

As for why they actually decide to go FCY, well.. I think in the ALMS races it's always for safety. In Europe they'll do a local caution and send the marshalls out into a gravel trap w/ some equipment to get the car back on track. That doesn't seem to happen here in the states (and I don't really blame them, you couldn't pay me enough to be a marshall and go out there to do that! have you seen some of these "professional" drivers? lol!).

It's a crappy problem.. but I haven't heard of a better solution or spent much time trying to come up with one myself.

-mike

No worries Mike, with more and more of those folks you´ll get used to it pretty quickly!

Do you have plans to do the Dubai or Nurburgring 24H next year? Both races have their own ´non-safety car-FCY´; in Dubai they use the Code 60 system (every car slows down to 60kph, no safety car, no passing, gaps stay the same, racing is resumed as soon as green flag is shown, no need to wait till start/finish line) while at the Ring they use something what is best described as ´local FCY´ (yeah, I know, that sounds rather confusing...) i.e. double waved yellow at the turn where the incident occurred (car in the gravel trap for instance), preceded by a single waving at the previous turn and a single stationary yellow flag at the turn before that. No passing obviously and cars need to slow down to - again - 60 kph. In both cases GPS is used to monitor speeds and observe violations.

Btw, what happened to your car at the end, throttle stuck open? Haven´t seen a replay of the crash but it looked nasty! Hope Jan is allright.

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

No worries Mike, with more and more of those folks you´ll get used to it pretty quickly!

Do you have plans to do the Dubai or Nurburgring 24H next year? Both races have their own ´non-safety car-FCY´; in Dubai they use the Code 60 system (every car slows down to 60kph, no safety car, no passing, gaps stay the same, racing is resumed as soon as green flag is shown, no need to wait till start/finish line) while at the Ring they use something what is best described as ´local FCY´ (yeah, I know, that sounds rather confusing...) i.e. double waved yellow at the turn where the incident occurred (car in the gravel trap for instance), preceded by a single waving at the previous turn and a single stationary yellow flag at the turn before that. No passing obviously and cars need to slow down to - again - 60 kph. In both cases GPS is used to monitor speeds and observe violations.

Btw, what happened to your car at the end, throttle stuck open? Haven´t seen a replay of the crash but it looked nasty! Hope Jan is allright.

Next year, if I'm not full-time in USCR I plan to do most of the big endurance GT races around the world. Bathurst 12H, Dubai, Spa 24H, and N24. Of course planning is one thing and actually doing it is another! Lol.

I see ways to abuse the code 60 system, but I haven't experienced it first hand to know exactly how it works and if it's better/worse than our FCY system here in the states.

As for the end of the ALMS race yesterday, the initial cause looks to be a burst front right brake line. Jan is fine, just a little sore. :-)

-mike

[Mechanic Z]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

I wish they could get them done faster, but because it's multi-class racing they *must* get the field in order first. Otherwise, at every caution you risk going a lap down to your own class leader based SOLEY on where and who the safety car decides to pickup first.

As for why they actually decide to go FCY, well.. I think in the ALMS races it's always for safety. In Europe they'll do a local caution and send the marshalls out into a gravel trap w/ some equipment to get the car back on track. That doesn't seem to happen here in the states (and I don't really blame them, you couldn't pay me enough to be a marshall and go out there to do that! have you seen some of these "professional" drivers? lol!).

It's a crappy problem.. but I haven't heard of a better solution or spent much time trying to come up with one myself.

-mike

+1. The ALMS safety car procedure takes a lot of time, but safety needs to come first.
As for the race, In person it was AWESOME. Can't say I liked seeing Viper win, but hey, it was a good fight anyway!

[FalkenALMS]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

I wish they could get them done faster, but because it's multi-class racing they *must* get the field in order first. Otherwise, at every caution you risk going a lap down to your own class leader based SOLEY on where and who the safety car decides to pickup first.

As for why they actually decide to go FCY, well.. I think in the ALMS races it's always for safety.

Agreed with Mike. Sure, FCYs aren't entertaining for the fans, but their number one purpose is for safety. Doing a local yellow with some of the crashes at RA would have caused more carnage. It's much safer to get the accident cleaned up and get the car out of the way. It also gives (some) teams a little help with passarounds, and adds to the strategy with additional chances for pit stops.

For those complaining about the last yellow, that certainly took more than nine minutes to clean up. There was no way they could have gotten that out of the way, completed pass arounds and gone back to green before the end.

Thanks to everyone who came out to say hello during the weekend. We'll get photos up of the 10/10ths tour within the next day or two.

[TRspitfirefan]

I think the current FCY system works pretty well. It does take awhile, but it allows track workers a much better level of safety than the European races.
The flaw with the "Code 60" method, is that the cars would still be spread out. The corner workers would not have as much time between the cars going by.

Also the cautions did not seem as long, when watching the race in person.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by FalkenALMS

Agreed with Mike. Sure, FCYs aren't entertaining for the fans, but their number one purpose is for safety. Doing a local yellow with some of the crashes at RA would have caused more carnage. It's much safer to get the accident cleaned up and get the car out of the way. It also gives (some) teams a little help with passarounds, and adds to the strategy with additional chances for pit stops.

For those complaining about the last yellow, that certainly took more than nine minutes to clean up. There was no way they could have gotten that out of the way, completed pass arounds and gone back to green before the end.

Thanks to everyone who came out to say hello during the weekend. We'll get photos up of the 10/10ths tour within the next day or two.

Code 60... or Code whatever speed you pick is the answer. A caution is needed, you call Code 60... cars must circulate at a maximum speed, in this case 60 km/h... no safety car, no waive arounds, nobody gains advantage or disadvantage from the yellows.

[Maelochs]

As was mentioned above, Code 60 leaves cars spread out. This is fine so long as track workers and emergency vehicles don't have to cross the track or work near the track's edge.

For big wrecks in hard-to-reach places, FCY might be the best choice, and as Mr. Hedlund notes, once the pace car hits the track in multi-class racing, wave-bys are needed for fairness (I know I saw a lot of complaint on an old ALMS site before wave-bys were added.)

My hope now is that USCR will spend the money for corner cranes (seeing as they are making car owners spend the money for roof hooks) so FCYs can be short and fewer---a crane in the corner of that final wreck would have made all the difference.

[EricS]

Majority of the FCYs are slowed down due to the pit stop rules; GA takes 3 laps just to get the pit stops out of the way. If they would leave the pits open like F1 things would go a lot faster, or close them for the duration of the yellow (making exception for those that are almost out of fuel or damaged from the cause of the yellow)

[MoMedic9019]

Pits should stay open all the time...I've never understood the reason behind it.

[Purist]

It reduces the time that you could have stragglers circulating the track at significant speed trying to catch up with the Safety Car queue. This is also why they have THREE Safety Cars at Le Mans, so you DON'T have guys whipping around the course for five minutes AFTER the caution has actually come out.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Purist

It reduces the time that you could have stragglers circulating the track at significant speed trying to catch up with the Safety Car queue. This is also why they have THREE Safety Cars at Le Mans, so you DON'T have guys whipping around the course for five minutes AFTER the caution has actually come out.

But as soon as pit stops cycle, they run at full chat to catch back up...

[Purist]

It gives the marshals time in that initial phase of clean-up, and the guys coming out of the pits, a handful of minutes later, are going to be relatively clumped together. In other words, it's predictable and reliable, and the marshals have a better idea of what to expect when. Also, as previously stated, this system provides for large gaps of time when there are NO cars going past, which aids in both clean-up and marshal safety.

Frankly, the circumstances under which this topic ALWAYS comes up tell me that this is by-and-large a convenience issue for people. Therefore, I'm quite happy to just dismiss the complaints and calls for a fundamental shift in how these situations are handled. I think it is possible that ways can be found to clean up and streamline the re-organization of the field before returning to green, but apart from that, just leave it alone.

Yes, I do think there are more situations than they are taking advantage of now to just have a local yellow, but I also know that in the States, this is kind of to be expected.

BTW, in Europe, and elsewhere, the policy is generally to leave stranded vehicles, unless they are judged to be in a precarious position. Stalled/stranded vehicles aren't restarted or assisted (unless you're Michael Schumacher at the Nurburgring).

[EricS]

People complain about it EVERY race that there is a FCY.

[Ginaro Zukovsky]

Originally Posted by Purist

It gives the marshals time in that initial phase of clean-up, and the guys coming out of the pits, a handful of minutes later, are going to be relatively clumped together. In other words, it's predictable and reliable, and the marshals have a better idea of what to expect when. Also, as previously stated, this system provides for large gaps of time when there are NO cars going past, which aids in both clean-up and marshal safety.

Surely slowing the cars down to 37mph is more predictable and reliable, and a better way to give the marshals time in the initial phase, instead of having people run around at almost race speed to catch the SC? I mean how big of a gap do you normally need to work in - how often are cars dragged across the track etc.? Doesn't seem to be problems with code 60 in Dubai with 70+ cars on a 1.2km smaller track than Road America.

[Maelochs]

The only reason not to use FCY, Code 60, and local yellows as the situations demands, is the potential for confusion. Otherwise, all there have their legitimate uses.

[Beetle]

Full course yellows are absolutely necessary. Would you rather have the minor inconvenience of the race being temporary put on hold or a dead marshal?

I hate conversations like this - just enjoy the race when it's happening, people!!!







BTW, it was a very good race.

[Maelochs]

I agree with Beetle--under no circumstances should we examine what works--Without Killing People--in other series and then consider ways to improve anything, anywhere, ever.

We should all be scared by the specter of dead track workers, and not even support racing.

[FalkenALMS]

If the pits were just left open all the time during an ALMS race, it would be pure chaos when FCY hits and everyone comes into the pits at the same time.1) Leaving the pits closed for one lap allows the field to get in the right order. The pass arounds help bring the classes back together and bring more of the fans the competition they pay to see, and helps teams who may be stuck behind a slower class car.

2) Then when the pits are open class by class, it allows everyone to get their pit stops in without over crowding and most importantly keeping the crew safe. Keep in mind during a race weekend, all our pit equipment is there with the pit equipment of whatever other series we're running with. Also, even if they're not in our class, we have to work together with the teams pitted on both sides of us to make sure we don't crowd each other during pit stops. It's normal to see drivers jump over pit wall from another team's pit wall because there's just no space in their own pit.

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by FalkenALMS

2) Then when the pits are open class by class, it allows everyone to get their pit stops in without over crowding and most importantly keeping the crew safe. Keep in mind during a race weekend, all our pit equipment is there with the pit equipment of whatever other series we're running with. Also, even if they're not in our class, we have to work together with the teams pitted on both sides of us to make sure we don't crowd each other during pit stops. It's normal to see drivers jump over pit wall from another team's pit wall because there's just no space in their own pit.

Just for the record Team Falken is the best group to be pitted next to. Hell, I'd prefer it to a prototype... you guys did beat us at Road America during the race to get rollbars changed though, after it dried out. Next time!

-mike

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by FalkenALMS

If the pits were just left open all the time during an ALMS race, it would be pure chaos when FCY hits and everyone comes into the pits at the same time.1) Leaving the pits closed for one lap allows the field to get in the right order. The pass arounds help bring the classes back together and bring more of the fans the competition they pay to see, and helps teams who may be stuck behind a slower class car.

2) Then when the pits are open class by class, it allows everyone to get their pit stops in without over crowding and most importantly keeping the crew safe. Keep in mind during a race weekend, all our pit equipment is there with the pit equipment of whatever other series we're running with. Also, even if they're not in our class, we have to work together with the teams pitted on both sides of us to make sure we don't crowd each other during pit stops. It's normal to see drivers jump over pit wall from another team's pit wall because there's just no space in their own pit.

How would it be chaos under Code 60?

[dxk1]

I can think of three basic viewpoints on the issue of FCY vs code 60 or something similar: the viewers perspective, the drivers perspective and the actual track workers perspective. Most of us express the perspective of the viewer, which is that we would prefer something that least detracts from the race. I believe we have gotten a little of the drivers perspective from Mike and John. I would love to hear from a track worker's perspective since theirs is likely the most relevant as it is their health and well-being that is most at stake here. If there is someone on this forum that is a corner worker or track safety worker, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this topic.

DK

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by dxk1

I can think of three basic viewpoints on the issue of FCY vs code 60 or something similar: the viewers perspective, the drivers perspective and the actual track workers perspective. Most of us express the perspective of the viewer, which is that we would prefer something that least detracts from the race. I believe we have gotten a little of the drivers perspective from Mike and John. I would love to hear from a track worker's perspective since theirs is likely the most relevant as it is their health and well-being that is most at stake here. If there is someone on this forum that is a corner worker or track safety worker, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this topic.

DK

As a spectator, I feel that anything that makes the racing safer for the drivers, crews and corner workers is well worth a few laps less of green flag racing.
Which detracts more from the race, a few laps of FCY, or a serious injury to one of the participants?

[EricS]

Of course safety is number 1 priority. But in typical ALMS/GA safety car periods, most of the time spent in FCY is waiting for everyone to finish taking turns pitting and doing the wave bys. The stranded car or debris on the track is cleaned up pretty quickly most of the time.

I agree with Fogelhound, if you have code 60 and keep pits open, i don't think it would be THAT much chaos in the pits. The cars all spread throughout the track and pitting at different times, versus pitting at once when everyone is behind a safety car.

[Mechanic Z]

Both Kelly and Mike have stated that the system works pretty well. I'm pretty sure that both of them know more than any of the rest of us about the caution systems.
I'll listen to them!

I can take a few more minutes under yellow rather than jeopardize the safety of the teams, drivers and corner workers. They're the ones who are in danger, us fans are only inconvenienced.

Human life is special, and should not be taken lightly.