Alfa Romeo and BMW could be seen in BTCC...

[touringlegend]

According to this week's Motorsport News, the marques of Alfa Romeo and BMW could be represented by teams in the British Touring Car Championship next year.

BTCC series organiser TOCA are currently discussing ways to find a common ground between the rules of both series after several teams requested the issue be looked into.

Richard West is looking at ways to enable the ETCC cars to run in the BTCC:
"We are internally evaluating whether there is a possible bridge between the ETCC and BTCC. The question has been asked of us by a couple of teams. The ETCC and BTCC both have their strength and weaknesses and there has to be some common ground."

Edenbridge Racing team boss Peter Briggs is also confident that if there were to be some common ground that his team would be able to put together a deal to run BMW's in the BTCC's top class.

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I think this has/had to happen some time as currently we need as many cars out there in both series. If this works out, it'd be brilliant to possibly see Alfa Romeo's, BMW's and Seat's in the BTCC as well as our cars in some of the ETCC rounds. (I reckon TOCA is learning from the STCC too)

[Super Tourer]

Yep, saw this too - as we have often debated on 10/10 some sort of common ground is vital to the future of both series.

If car makers like BMW and Alfa Romeo can achieve economy of scale by producing a car that can run in both series it dramatically increases the viability of running in the BTCC, which at present is unlikely due to the cost of running in a purely national series with a purpose built car, and in Alfa's case, a very small percentage of their car sales market.

[KPC]

Is Richard West admitting that the new formula never really got off the ground? GA were negotiating with Alpha for a couple of tourers this year... which obviously never amounted to much. As with everything we read in the press.... believe it when you see it. Although don't get me wrong, it would be a good thing... but we've heard this all before.....

[alesi95]

Alfa and BMW are indeed the grandaddies of Touring cars.

I would love to see them return.

[Synopsis]

At last!! Alfa and BMW could join in. Works supported or independants, it doesnt matter. What a great idea!!

[SPARK Msport]

I like the sound of that. I must admit that I am a bit upset that Vauxhall last year was running 4 cars and 2 Indy cars. With more manufactures in the touring class it would be more exciting and going back to the 90's when the BTCC for me was at its best.

[Sodemo]

What the BTCC needs is everything it lost when they got rid of the supertourers.

I haven't been to a BTCC round since 2000, having been going since 1989.

The BTCC cars themselves have lost a lot of their "spectacle", the supertourers look and sound fast, as well as being fast. The current regs don't allow the cars to be anywhere near as good.

It wouldn't require much to make the cars faster, if they increased the engine to 2.5 litres, and made the tyres wider and the wheels slightly bigger (18") and got rid of those ridiculous rear wings, then i'd come back.

Oh and they need to be a LOT louder.

[BootsOntheSide]

It would be fantastic, although Alfa have a history of bending the rules somewhat, and are responsible for the big rear wings which weakened the old formula from 1995 onwards. BMW, meanwhile, were the big car of the early 90s and before, and woudl certainly be welcome.

[Sim_Da_BTCC_Man]

I'd love to see it happen but if it means rule changes, it cannot be done until '06. We need the manufactures because its possible certain manufactures will pull support at the end of this year. Alfa And BMW would bring back more fans and make the series more high profile but I dont think that it will happen soon.

[touringlegend]

Originally posted by The Monster
What the BTCC needs is everything it lost when they got rid of the supertourers.

I haven't been to a BTCC round since 2000, having been going since 1989.

The BTCC cars themselves have lost a lot of their "spectacle", the supertourers look and sound fast, as well as being fast. The current regs don't allow the cars to be anywhere near as good.

It wouldn't require much to make the cars faster, if they increased the engine to 2.5 litres, and made the tyres wider and the wheels slightly bigger (18") and got rid of those ridiculous rear wings, then i'd come back.

Oh and they need to be a LOT louder.

Sounds like you'd prefer GT cars to Touring Cars anyway.

BTW I don't think it is rule changes as such. It's looking into a way of bringing the ETCC cars into the BTCC but making them as equal as each other. More or less what the STCC has done this year.

[Sodemo]

Not really Touringlegend, I loved the supertouring era, but find the new BTCC regs a real turn off, I actually don't like GT racing much, though I do watch Le Mans.

The supertouring cars were a lot faster in both cornering and straight line speeds, its some of that which needs to return, todays cars look tame.

The BTCC now looks and feels like a club event, before it was a much "bigger" championship.

[touringlegend]

Personally I haven't noticed too much of a difference since the switch over from Super Touring. I suppose the cars are not as "spectacular", but there also not as spectacular on the manufacturers finances either. Something has to give I suppose.

[kmchow]

Originally posted by alesi95
Alfa and BMW are indeed the grandaddies of Touring cars.
I would love to see them return.

Don't forget Audi. They're racing an A4 in the STCC and the A6 in the US. So they have some experience in building either TCs!

[kmchow]

Originally posted by Sim_Da_BTCC_Man
I'd love to see it happen but if it means rule changes, it cannot be done until '06.

Aren't rules meant to be "adjusted" as the need arises? I mean, if the rule changes can bring new cars, teams, fans and sponsors to the series, forget the (old) rules and promises. In this case, I think Richard West has to look toward the future. And the future is again a global set of rules.

Now that Europe has a set of rules that is also being used in Sweden, perhaps he finally has realized he should seriously consider joining that set of rules.

I think people should give up the pride/ego that the BTCC is the crown jewel of TC and should decide how TCs look. Hey, I love the BTCC, but times change...

[redshoes]

Monster, I think you are mistaking speed with good racing. I won't deny the SuperTourers were great but it's hard to deny that there is more actual racing these days than in the last years of ST. Bring back the bigger wheels and proper rear wings and you'll lose much of the overtaking. Anyhow, as TL has already said, stand trackside and I doubt you'll even notice the difference in straight line speed.

[Chris Y]

Plus, if you haven't been trackside since 2000, how can you compare?

[Portello]

To have a common ground ('Super 2000'- regulations are already a good basis) in European Touring Car motorsports would be fantastic, provided that there are serious intentions to achieve this. In case of Alfa Romeo/Autodelta, I could imagine they're open minded.

P.

alfisti.net/Alfa Romeo Network

[Craig]

Originally posted by Sim_Da_BTCC_Man
I'd love to see it happen but if it means rule changes, it cannot be done until '06. We need the manufactures because its possible certain manufactures will pull support at the end of this year. Alfa And BMW would bring back more fans and make the series more high profile but I dont think that it will happen soon.

Depends, of course, on whether all the teams in the series are in favour of any changes. Which, from what I hear around the paddock, they are generally. It makes sense for both series to make changes to their rules and move towards a closer package of rules.

[Sodemo]

It wouldn't cost the tyre manufacturers a penny to increase the width of the tyres my friends, that would increase cornering speeds.

Redshoes, I can see with my own eyes that the racing is better, but I didn't think anything was wrong with supertouring racing - quality wise.
If they brought back the bigger wheels the cars would look a whole lot better and would make them corner faster still, I do agree with the whole areo argument.
Besides they had all these things in 1990 - 1994 and the racing wasn't "bad".


I have watched some of the races on TV, and even from that viewpoint you can see the cars are slower.
I haven't been trackside because only half the field seems to turn up!

We need more cars people!

[alfasud]

Originally posted by kmchow
Don't forget Audi. They're racing an A4 in the STCC and the A6 in the US. So they have some experience in building either TCs!

True, but when people talk about Alfa and BMW being the grandaddies of touring car racing, you have to look back to the 60's with the Alfa Romeo Giulia Super and Giulia GT/GTA and BMW 1600/1800/2002. I don't think Audi were a major force in touring cars back then.

I personaly think the super tall wheels with super low profile tyres of the late 90's Supertourers look a bit stupid and really only suited to super smooth tracks. I think the 17" wheels used in Super2000 look about right. All that's needed is some equalisation of performance, so the two classes can race together.

[kmchow]

Originally posted by alfasud
True, but when people talk about Alfa and BMW being the grandaddies of touring car racing, you have to look back to the 60's with the Alfa Romeo Giulia Super and Giulia GT/GTA and BMW 1600/1800/2002. I don't think Audi were a major force in touring cars back then.

Okay, I was only speaking of Audi's involvement in the modern day Class 2 and ST times. I didn't know Audi's TC involvement was significantly less than BMWs.

I personaly think the super tall wheels with super low profile tyres of the late 90's Supertourers look a bit stupid and really only suited to super smooth tracks. I think the 17" wheels used in Super2000 look about right.

I felt the widening of the wheel arches was really stupid. It turned the "stock looking" ST cars into more "GT" like cars.

All that's needed is some equalisation of performance, so the two classes can race together.

I would go so far as to forget equalisation rules like weight,etc..., just make the rules the same. A much simpler method.

[kmchow]

Originally posted by The Monster
Redshoes, I can see with my own eyes that the racing is better, but I didn't think anything was wrong with supertouring racing - quality wise.

Technically speaking, the cars and the teams became very high quality/calibre. However, the amount of passing definitely seemed to go down as time passed.

Besides they had all these things in 1990 - 1994 and the racing wasn't "bad".

Agreed. The racing was still good during those years as manufacturers were just starting to play and test out aero aids. But as time passed, they got too good! Between 90-94, the cars kinda slid into corners. From 95-00, the cars basically sliced their way through the corners.

While the later ST cars were indeed more precise, they lacked the semi-unstable, wobbly, slip sliding handling of their 90-94 cousins. I have to admit I found the sliding into corners much more fun to watch.

However, from the '95-'99 ST years, I did like ST because of it's serious,F1-ish, and mean looking aero kits! They looked and meant "business"!

[touringlegend]

Hmm, the current Touring Cars have far too much grip (compared to power) without making the tyres even wider. Could be wrong but I think the tyres are the same width as they always were in Super Touring.

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by The Monster

Redshoes, I can see with my own eyes that the racing is better, but I didn't think anything was wrong with supertouring racing - quality wise.
If they brought back the bigger wheels the cars would look a whole lot better and would make them corner faster still, I do agree with the whole areo argument.
Besides they had all these things in 1990 - 1994 and the racing wasn't "bad".


I have watched some of the races on TV, and even from that viewpoint you can see the cars are slower.
I haven't been trackside because only half the field seems to turn up!

We need more cars people!

The early 1990s Touring Car racing was superb, but by the late 90s the series was in its deasth-throes. The huge rear wings meant that the races were processional by Touring Car standards (although thrilling comapred to F1), manufacturers were dropping out as they had basically got all the publicity (good for Ford, Nissan, Volvo and Renault; bad for Peugeot and others) available, and no one new was coming in. they needed to change the rules.

The car count of 17 Tourers may be quite low, but it's still 6 higher than in 2000, and above 1998 and 1999, so what's the problem? You can't hold companies t gunpoint to force them to enter.

[Jimeth]

now there's an interesting idea!