No more LMP1 coupes (sort of)... (merged)

[chernaudi]

Remember the proposed ACO rules for 2010 that virtually made coupes manditory in LMP1? And remember the rumors that the ACO may only partly implement it(make GTP coupes an option). Well, Endurance Info reports that the ACO has scrapped the LMP1 GTP plan, but plan to implement an LMGTP class separate but equal to LMP1 in 2010. It's just like 1999 again.

I wonder what this means for the ALMS and JLMC though.

[The359]

If they're equal, why make a seperate class?

[JHamilton]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the case now? It was for the Bentley's.

[Zurbert82]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the case now? It was for the Bentley's.

Nope, not anymore. That was back when there was LMP900, LMP675, and LMGTP. The Peugeot 908 is in the LMP1 class.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Zurbert82

Nope, not anymore. That was back when there was LMP900, LMP675, and LMGTP. The Peugeot 908 is in the LMP1 class.

Thanks for the clarification. Was 2003 really still the LMP900 days? Crazy...seems longer ago than that.

[canam]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the case now? It was for the Bentley's.

It is the case now; however, the Bentley ran to a different set of regs and, particularly, ran with a 675 tyre not a 900 tyre.

Having a different class in 2010 will allow them to vary the rules in favour of this class (for overall victories etc) if they want to.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by canam

It is the case now; however, the Bentley ran to a different set of regs and, particularly, ran with a 675 tyre not a 900 tyre.

Having a different class in 2010 will allow them to vary the rules in favour of this class (for overall victories etc) if they want to.

So are they going to be GTP-1's or GTP-2's or both??

L.P.

[Félix]

The way I read it, it's more like almost everybody disagrees with banning the current LMP1s in 2010 so they will introduce an equivalancy formula between the current cars and the news coupés. If the "equivalancy" formula is as good as the diesel one, you know what that means for older cars... We might get an idea of what the rules are technically at Le Mans this year.

There's also an interesting point about the P1 class being for manufacturers and cost control being irrevelant there but being essential in GT2 and LMP2...

I see a P1 class for Audi against Peugeot against Acura against whoever has an unlimited budget and a P2 class with cars a few notches down in technology compared to what we have now. I don't see where Pescarolo fits in. And I can see a Porsche P2 now equiped with the GT2 engine and with a much squarier tub...

[JAG]

This is my interpretation.

Unlike the Peugeot 908, the 2010 coupes will have very different aerodynamics to current P1's (open and closed), in order to closer resemble road cars.

To equalise performance, the lower downforce (presumably) 2010 coupes would likely have more power and/or bigger tyres, lower weight etc.

Creating a new class for 2010 coupes also allows coupes built before 2010, like the 908, to continue into and past 2010, just like the open cars.

Of course, if a coupe is built after 2009, it will have to be to the new regs.

I also see the ACO saying enough is enought in P2. I could see them lowering the performance of P2 'race' engines. in the proccess allowing GT2 engines to be competitive in P2 chassis.

P2 engines should have lower performance, less technology, and longer intervals before rebuilds.

Will also be very interesting to see what happens with GT1 and GT2.

[chewymonster]

I don't really like the frequent complete rule changes. I think many manufacturers don't want to enter a series that has unstable rules.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by JAG

T
P2 engines should have lower performance, less technology, and longer intervals before rebuilds.

Or the currecnt P2 cars / engines elevated to P1

[chewymonster]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Or the currecnt P2 cars / engines elevated to P1

And current GT2s into GT1s. So we will end up with two classes. Oh wait, this has been discussed many times before with the answer ending up as a NO to both questions.

[Flat12-Aircool]

I don't think they can downgrade the LMP2's much, cus if they do we'll be back to the situation of only a quarter of the field making the full 24hrs.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by JAG

This is my interpretation.

Unlike the Peugeot 908, the 2010 coupes will have very different aerodynamics to current P1's (open and closed), in order to closer resemble road cars.

To equalise performance, the lower downforce (presumably) 2010 coupes would likely have more power and/or bigger tyres, lower weight etc.

Creating a new class for 2010 coupes also allows coupes built before 2010, like the 908, to continue into and past 2010, just like the open cars.

Of course, if a coupe is built after 2009, it will have to be to the new regs.

I also see the ACO saying enough is enought in P2. I could see them lowering the performance of P2 'race' engines. in the proccess allowing GT2 engines to be competitive in P2 chassis.

P2 engines should have lower performance, less technology, and longer intervals before rebuilds.

Will also be very interesting to see what happens with GT1 and GT2.

Think the GT2/P2 connection could be a great idea. Would be cool to see what the flat-6 could do in a proto bodied car and might interest Ferrari in supporting an engine program with the 430 lump. Anybody for a ferrari engined radical? another chance for the classic sports car match-up waiting to happen. But would be cool to see engine suppliers and chassis builders get seperated and no porsche/acura factory teams within the classes (GT2/P2). Let the factories fight in out in the big classes with full factory teams building/designing the chassis and engine inhouse.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Or the currecnt P2 cars / engines elevated to P1

I don't see the need as the P1 variants of the Lola etc, are very similar to the P1 anyhow.



'I don't think they can downgrade the LMP2's much, cus if they do we'll be back to the situation of only a quarter of the field making the full 24hrs.'


P2 needs to be budget racing, engines should be larger, lower reving and less powerful.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by chewymonster

I don't really like the frequent complete rule changes. I think many manufacturers don't want to enter a series that has unstable rules.

P900 cars raced almost unchanged for 10 or so years.

Current P1's hit the tracks in 2004 and will be going strong past 2010, only coupes will have significant changes.

[Purist]

Obviously, the GT2 engines are too large for the current regs, and Porsche wouldn't agree to this proposal. While P2 was envisaged as budget racing, that Porsche insists on running as a factory there is very telling. Porsche will NOT have a factory effort, except in P2, until the diesel/petrol regs in P1 are "fixed" (not to be confused with the unlevel playing field type of fixed). Also, if you drop the power in the P2s much , they'll get run over by the GT1s on the straights (which could be a real issue on tight temporary circuits).

[Félix]

The P2/675 cars have gone throught carnages most of the time in the last years because the rules are changed too often. The ROC car was (mostly) reliable in its 2nd, 3rd and 4th participation in P675 but more extreme 675s were already there by then. When Dyson, Intersport, Creation and Zytek got their 675 cars mostly reliable, they were in their last year of legality and had to be replaced. The first year of P2 was horrendous but then in 2005 the C65s were numerous and quite reliable. But they were hybrids and had to be replaced by newer cars that have to be made reliable on 2 years... to be pushed aside by the next ACO rule change in 2010 or maybe earlier if they don't like what P2 is becoming... or to be pushed aside by faster P2s from factory teams that are very tough to compete against... Viscious cercle uh?

If you don't want to see that phenomenom of customer cars becoming dated as soon or even before they are reliable, you have to fix some parts of the rules to introduce a spec-racing twist in it. I think sportscar racing is one of the very few forms of motorsport where everything hasn't been "spec'ed" in the last few years. It should stay free and diversified, but also full of small teams running on affordable budgets.

While not politically realistic, the simplest way to control it all would be to stop excessive progress from making the customer cars obsolete by limiting very strictly what's new from the manufacturers and making it available to everyone, and that in every class...

[Purist]

The P675s, for all intents and purposes, had six seasons in Europe (2001-2006), and are in their seventh over here. The official P2 rules were announced in 2003, and a few manufacturers built interim cars. If teams bought what they knew was an intermediate step in machinery (that was only going to be legal for a few years), that's their own fault for not thinking longer-term. As for 2010, that is just for the top class by all appearances.

Something important to note is that many of the early P675s were in fact old SRP2s/WSCs (which came out in 1995). They would have been so well sorted that a newer, faster machine was going to need a hell of a lot of development to stand a real chance. Also though, I have a feeling that the heavier weight of the P2s over the P675s has led to inherently, substantially better reliability. This, obviously, has helped the privateers.

In P2 right now, it's Acura I'd be worried about. Porsche is selling plenty of quick customer machinery, for Dyson, Cytosport (spelling), and a few others. I think this could work out quite well. By the time the diesel regs may change, and Porsche moves to P1, Porsche will have stocked P2 with plenty of well-sorted privateer cars.

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by Purist

By the time the diesel regs may change, and Porsche moves to P1, Porsche will have stocked P2 with plenty of well-sorted privateer cars.

I agree, Factory involvement in LMP2 is not necessaraly a bad thing so long as the Manufacturer's don't stick around too long.

A 2-3 year Factory presence in LMP2 can going forward provide Privateer teams with a very good second-hand car to enter the series with.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by JAG

P2 needs to be budget racing, engines should be larger, lower reving and less powerful.

Whoaaaa - Is that called Grand AM ??

[bil588]

is the kw motorsport p1 coupe really going to happen for 08?

http://www.the-paddock.net/content/view/240292/1/

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by bil588

is the kw motorsport p1 coupe really going to happen for 08?

http://www.the-paddock.net/content/view/240292/1/

As beautiful of a car as it would be, I don't see any of them happening. Only "one-offs" from large manufacturers like Peugeot and Bentley, etc. That's my opinion of course.

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Whoaaaa - Is that called Grand AM ??

why i believe it is AU

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Whoaaaa - Is that called Grand AM ??

I'm thinking the benchmark P2, the RS Spyder, should not cost $1m+ dollars, more than most P1's.

I'm sure Porsche could knock out an RS Spyder with a 911 RSR engine and higher minumum weight, therefore fewer exotic materials, for half the price, if pushed.