[BTCC] Jason Plato, the greatest ever?

[touringlegend]

Plato now has 57 BTCC wins against the all time record of 60 set by Andy Rouse.

He could equal that at Silverstone this weekend but I wonder when (if?) he'll end up on 61 and become statistically the most succesful driver in terms of wins.

Even with that record under his belt do you feel he deserves the accolade? Or is the BTCC diluted now with 30 races per season, when Rouse had a lot fewer races per season does this make his achievement greater?

[aland]

well he will beat Andy Rouse's win tally but as for being the greatest BTCC driver, not a chance. Andy will allways be a btcc master, you can never replace him. perhaps this might make him have a comeback, Arena have a focus available, that will pee plato off

[trebor901]

i think the same Plato will overtake but will never be the greatest BTCC driver ever

[chunder]

To be fair to Jason, Andy took an awful lot of wins early on from class races did he not? Or are they overall meeting wins? A bit like guys like Hodgetts and even Cleland early on?

And in Andy's favour he was racing only one race a meeting for most of his career, not three!!

[Tim Wilkinson]

What's the wins / starts ratio of each? That would be the best way to judge, rather than outright wins, as 30 races now doesn't compare to 12-16 races in Rouse's time. Are those Rouse stats for outright wins, or do they include class victories?

Class of opposition should be taken into account, too, although both have periods with little real opposition.

[davyboy]

Andy and Jason are both deserving of the title BTCC legend. The fact one has a higher tally than the other doesn't mean they're any greater or lesser. The differences in era are so pronounced that a direct comparison is impossible.

[Craner Curves]

Statistically - yes. In reality - no.

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunder

To be fair to Jason, Andy took an awful lot of wins early on from class races did he not? Or are they overall meeting wins? A bit like guys like Hodgetts and even Cleland early on?

And in Andy's favour he was racing only one race a meeting for most of his career, not three!!

Pretty sure it's 60 outright wins- Somewhere I've got a league table of race and class wins (probably from an old BTCC media guide) that ought to clear it up- I'll look it out

The season-by-season outline of his career on the official website only accounts for about 45 of the 60 race wins- However, looking at that listing, I can see some gaps and a couple of errors, as it certainly doesn't mention how many races he won on the way to his 1984 title...
http://www.btcc.net/html/history_dri...tail.php?id=23

To muddy the waters a bit, at some circuits (Oulton and Mallory in particular) some classes raced separately (up to 1982 I think). Does an outright win in a separate race for the smaller classes count as a race win or a class win....?

[Icebaby]

Plato is very good but flawed if you take into account all the time in BTCC, had he gone about his racing has has this year he would have won many more championships.

I would rate James Thopmson as nearer to Andy Rouse as the best of all -time

[Adam43]

People's previous thoughts are here:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118805

[Benny1664]

Plato doesnt have the quality to be a true legend.. his moves can be quite underhand on occasion and I dont think he has the class that drivers like Thompson, Muller, Turkington etc who can win without punting someone off or winging about their car all the time. Though he isnt as bad as Matt Neal, I will give you that! All my credit for Neal went with his appaling driving at the final rounds last year when he was trying to help Muller get Turkingtons deserved crown in a really unsporting show of bad driving/team tactics.

[Icebaby]

Originally Posted by Benny1664

Plato doesnt have the quality to be a true legend.. his moves can be quite underhand on occasion and I dont think he has the class that drivers like Thompson, Muller, Turkington etc who can win without punting someone off or winging about their car all the time. Though he isnt as bad as Matt Neal, I will give you that! All my credit for Neal went with his appaling driving at the final rounds last year when he was trying to help Muller get Turkingtons deserved crown in a really unsporting show of bad driving/team tactics.

In regards to why Plato may not be the greatest driver I think that spot on where he is flawed compared to the other drivers mentioned who i would rate higher.

Although I am no Matt Neal fan I will on this occasion defend him if were looking at the last round tactics at Brands, he was under team orders and paid to do what he did. Any other team would have tried something similar and lets be clear Matt could have put Turkington out but simply defended the position hard. In my view it was Turkington that should have been punished as he punted Matt out the way gaining an unfair advantage... having said that the best man took the title that year.

[davyboy]

Jason's getting a right old bashing here which is a tad unfair. Jaysus I'm even beginning to sound like him now

There may be drivers more talented, but then the same could be said for Andy Rouse. There may have been those who've been less forceful shall we say about their moves, but then the same could be said for John Cleland and Steve Soper. There may have been eras with stronger competition, but then the same could be said of all three of those I've just mentioned. I feel we're doing Jason a massive diservice by belittling what he's accomplished in saying that he's 'flawed' or he's had weak opposition, or he's had three race meetings.

Over the years he's put in some incredible race performances. Remember the first event with the SEAT Toledo ? What about his 11th hour deal with RML to get the Chevy Lacetti out in Brands ? He's driven many different makes and types of car and has almost always been a contender for a win. He's taken on ex-F1 drivers and touring car specialists and beaten them all.

By the way Jason, come on here and help me out in defending you

[Tim Wilkinson]

I don't see any "bashing", what I see is people saying how they feel in response to the thread title and OP in a calm and considered way, and pointing out that statistics don't always tell the whole story.

It's not belittling, it's putting accomplishments into perspective. Yes, he's been contending for race wins and titles most years, and he's beaten a lot of drivers, but a lot of drivers have also beaten him. His title was in '01, maybe the weakest year in recent BTCC history.

Again, that's just perspective (and unfortunately a little negative). On the positive, he's a great driver, I would put him on my all-time BTCC grid without a doubt, and he'd be near the business end. But I would disagree that he's the greatest ever - that would be for someone like Muller (who Plato beat in '01!), Menu or Gio, IMO.

Maybe we should have another thread to draw up our all-time greatest BTCC grid? But how would we measure it, there's too many variables - pace, race-craft, car development, driving style.... (and try to focus on the positive!) before we even consider the requirements of different eras.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

I don't see any "bashing", what I see is people saying how they feel in response to the thread title and OP in a calm and considered way, and pointing out that statistics don't always tell the whole story.

Spot on. Winningest (is that a word?) and greatest are not the same thing. For anyone who thinks statistics tell the whole, try looking up Stirling Moss in the list of F1 world championships.

Davyboy is right about one thing though, we shouldn't necessarily class Andy Rouse as the greatest BTCC driver either.

[Adam43]

Saying he isn't the greatest, or even being shocked at him being considered as the greatest is not like saying he is rubbish.

[Craner Curves]

Exactly. Statistics can say all they want, they don't cover the full story, especially as we're clocking up 30 races a year now, as opposed to 12-15 when Andy Rouse was in his heyday. We'll see this in F1 as well, with the new points system. Someone will break the all-time scoring record in a few years, but it won't necessarily mean they're better than the previous record holder.

Regarding his potential achievement and his ability. I think we need to go back to 1997-99 when Super Touring was still strong and judge him on how he did then. His impressive 97 debut season aside, I think there were better drivers than him back then. It's hard to say about the 2000s, as he and the likes of Muller, Thompson and Reid were head and shoulders above anyone else in terms of ability.

[Tim Wilkinson]

In Feb '05 Motorsport magazine ranked the all-time greatest tin-top drivers.

"Modern-era" (Group A onwards) BTCC drivers featured.....

19 - Frank Biela
18 - Rickard Rydell
16 - Jo Winkelhock
13 - Laurent Aiello
11 - Gabriele Tarquini
10 - John Cleland
7 - Roberto Ravaglia
4 - Alain Menu
3 - Andy Rouse
1 - Steve Soper

The next issue mentions some who missed out on the top 20 - Tom Walkinshaw (24), Win Percy (30), Gordon Spice (32), James Thompson (34), Dave Brodie (35)

I'm not saying I agree with those choices or placings, but that's quite a list!

[Minicross424]

Greatest driver, no way.
Sorry to say i think Jasons driving tatics are disgraceful.
I lost all respect when he turned Chilton round at silverstone whilst flat out.

[Jamesy-18]

Originally Posted by Minicross424

Greatest driver, no way.
Sorry to say i think Jasons driving tatics are disgraceful.
I lost all respect when he turned Chilton round at silverstone whilst flat out.

Like Chilton hasn't done any of the similar. I think they need to turn the boost-pressure down on those Fords for both driver's sake. They seem to think they can just drive through people, not around them this year.

[Jacques Rabbit]

Andy Rouse has four championships.

Jason Plato has one (for now).

Winning races is one thing; being able to win a lot of them AND succeed in the races you don't win (and therefore win titles) is another. Plato's good, but he's not the best by any means.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Jacques Rabbit

Andy Rouse has four championships.

Jason Plato has one (for now).

Winning races is one thing; being able to win a lot of them AND succeed in the races you don't win (and therefore win titles) is another. Plato's good, but he's not the best by any means.

And Mr Rouse setup ARE to run cars for himself and others for many many years, both in the BTCC & around the world... while Mr Plato has remained a hired gun... the pressures are significantly different

I still vividly remember Mr Plato completely destroying an HRT Commodore at Bathurst when he was wobbling along on the racing line after blowing a tyre and shredding it by driving too quickly back to the pits... Epic Fail

[Bevan-L]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

I still vividly remember Mr Plato completely destroying an HRT Commodore at Bathurst when he was wobbling along on the racing line after blowing a tyre and shredding it by driving too quickly back to the pits... Epic Fail

It was only destroyed after Cleland hit it at full speed unsighted and he too landed up on his roof....

[NikkiM]

Jason has driven very well in 2009 and so far in 2010, maybe he does winge a bit too much, but this year the power/torque of the Focus is pretty daft, and so little has been done to make any attempt to equalise it, i can understand why.

His ability to manage his tyres in a race is outstanding.

[GOLDFINGER]

Is he not in wtcc due to his tv comittments ?