Was it unfair?

touring_car_fan · 24 Apr 2002, 18:10 (Ref:269605)

I think that its really bad that Tim Harvey has been penalised for not changing a wheel. How can he recieve a penalty for something that didn't gain him anything and wasn't his fault, when Tom Chilton gets away with murder at Brands! TH didn't gain any time in the pits (they still had to change the other side), or on the race track (only 1 new tyre!), so i dont think it was worthy of such a heavy penalty. On the other hand, TC punts off someone on the last lap to gain a place, and gets no penalty at all! And to top it off, he will get 2nd place's balast for next race! Absolutly none of which was his fault! Personally i feel sorry for TH this season so far!

OVERSTEER · 24 Apr 2002, 18:23 (Ref:269620)

Yeah I totally ditto your comments, I think it's disgusting whats happening.

Elaine · 24 Apr 2002, 18:35 (Ref:269636)

I definately don't feel sorry for him he deserves all he gets. For your info Tom did not get away with murder. That incident was all Tims fault in my opinion but Tom still got 2 points on his license for it! Which is the unfair part if you ask me. Tim then also punted Colin Turkington off last weekend. So even although not changing the tyre wasn't his fault he deserves what he got! I think he should be the one getting points on his license!

OVERSTEER · 24 Apr 2002, 18:41 (Ref:269642)

I feel so sorry for TH he's done nothing wrong get's punished for something beyond his control, TC rams TH at Brands gets practically nothing done to him.

touring_car_fan · 24 Apr 2002, 18:44 (Ref:269646)

How can it possibly be Tim's fault at brands - are you blind?????

Rhys · 24 Apr 2002, 18:47 (Ref:269650)

Quote:

Originally posted by Elaine
I definately don't feel sorry for him he deserves all he gets. For your info Tom did not get away with murder. That incident was all Tims fault in my opinion but Tom still got 2 points on his license for it! Which is the unfair part if you ask me. Tim then also punted Colin Turkington off last weekend. So even although not changing the tyre wasn't his fault he deserves what he got! I think he should be the one getting points on his license!

Hmmm, not sure if TH punted off Turkington. I think you're referring to the incident in the sprint race at Knickerbrook. In which case, I thought that it was some pretty neat driving from Harvey and it was Turkington who was trying to hard to take the place. There just wasn't enough room, and TH had the racing line.

Elaine · 24 Apr 2002, 18:49 (Ref:269652)

Nothing wrong with my eyesite you're the one needing yours tested! Maybe you should read the autosport that interview with Tim Harvey on dirty driving a few weeks back makes it pretty clear to me who was at fault

touring_car_fan · 24 Apr 2002, 18:52 (Ref:269656)

So an article he had some say in before the start of the season means that he MADE tom drive into the back of him!! if thats a joke - its very funny

Elaine · 24 Apr 2002, 18:53 (Ref:269662)

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhys

Hmmm, not sure if TH punted off Turkington. I think you're referring to the incident in the sprint race at Knickerbrook. In which case, I thought that it was some pretty neat driving from Harvey and it was Turkington who was trying to hard to take the place. There just wasn't enough room, and TH had the racing line.

I'll watch it on TV and see but it looked to me like it was TH'S fault. I'm sticking to my guns on the Tim Harvey-Tom Chilton incident though!

redshoes · 24 Apr 2002, 18:56 (Ref:269666)

I've already posted this in another thread but I'll repeat it here. We are not going to get into the whole Tom Chilton/Tim Harvey/Brands Hatch debate again

Elaine · 24 Apr 2002, 18:56 (Ref:269668)

Quote:

Originally posted by touring_car_fan
So an article he had some say in before the start of the season means that he MADE tom drive into the back of him!! if thats a joke - its very funny

He didn't make tom drive into the back of him - he braked far too early and there wasn't much Tom could do!

Rhys · 24 Apr 2002, 19:01 (Ref:269677)

Will someone do something about this? Please! I'm a pretty neutral fan; admire good driving when I see it and I've certainly seen a lot of it from TH. You can perhaps put the younger driver's errors down to experience or whatever, but I've hardly ever seen Harvey make an unforced error.

Dave Brand · 24 Apr 2002, 19:02 (Ref:269679)

Quote:

Originally posted by touring_car_fan
I think that its really bad that Tim Harvey has been penalised for not changing a wheel. How can he recieve a penalty for something that didn't gain him anything and wasn't his fault, when Tom Chilton gets away with murder at Brands! TH didn't gain any time in the pits (they still had to change the other side), or on the race track (only 1 new tyre!), so i dont think it was worthy of such a heavy penalty. On the other hand, TC punts off someone on the last lap to gain a place, and gets no penalty at all! And to top it off, he will get 2nd place's balast for next race! Absolutly none of which was his fault! Personally i feel sorry for TH this season so far!

I'm not in a position to comment on the Tom Chilton incident, other than to say that penalties for on-track incidents are not given arbitrarily.

Tim Harvey's case, however, is clear-cut. The rules clearly state that two wheels must be changed. Teams know that failure to do so will be penalised; that's it, end of story.

Whether or not Harvey gained any advantage from only changing one wheel is a matter of speculation. The reason given is that the wheel was jammed onto the hub. Getting the wheel off could have taken several minutes; by not changing the wheel, it could be said that he gained a considerable advantage. It was probably a management decision to take the penalty rather than waste time trying to change the wheel.

Rhys · 24 Apr 2002, 19:06 (Ref:269689)

Quote:

Whether or not Harvey gained any advantage from only changing one wheel is a matter of speculation. The reason given is that the wheel was jammed onto the hub. Getting the wheel off could have taken several minutes; by not changing the wheel, it could be said that he gained a considerable advantage. It was probably a management decision to take the penalty rather than waste time trying to change the wheel.

That is a very good point. I didn't see it that way to start, but now you mention it, it's a possibility.

redshoes · 24 Apr 2002, 19:23 (Ref:269718)

You could argue that Matt Neal gained no advantage by lining up on the grid too far to one side (but not forward of where he should have been), but that didn't stop him getting a drive-thru penalty.

OVERSTEER · 24 Apr 2002, 19:39 (Ref:269732)

Quote:

Originally posted by redshoes
You could argue that Matt Neal gained no advantage by lining up on the grid too far to one side (but not forward of where he should have been), but that didn't stop him getting a drive-thru penalty.

Well i'll say as a big Matt Neal fan that was down to him and not the team or the car, like the Incidents with TC or TH at Brands and Oulton respectivly.

Tim Harvey Fan · 24 Apr 2002, 19:50 (Ref:269744)

Of course, you know I like Tim Harvey but rules are rules and you can't do anything about that.

redshoes · 24 Apr 2002, 20:04 (Ref:269753)

Quote:

Originally posted by OVERSTEER
Well i'll say as a big Matt Neal fan that was down to him and not the team or the car

The driver is part of the team. If the team fit a 2.5 litre engine or a turbocharger does that mean that the driver should be allowed to continue as it wasn't his fault. Of course not.

kristof14 · 24 Apr 2002, 20:13 (Ref:269762)

not changing a wheel would have meant that Tim had 3 hot sticky tyres and 1 cold tyre, meaning he had more grip on his out lap than all the other drivers who had 2 cold tyres and 2 hot tyres. from this it can be seen that he could have gained an advantage as all the other drivers for at least half a lap had poor grip whereas tim didnt have the same difficulty.

a harsh penalty i know and not really tims fault but it is a team sport and a penalty like this will discourage other teams from thinking they can get away with it.

Jonny Apex · 25 Apr 2002, 10:44 (Ref:270207)

Quote:

Originally posted by Elaine

I'll watch it on TV and see but it looked to me like it was TH'S fault. I'm sticking to my guns on the Tim Harvey-Tom Chilton incident though!

Unfortunately, both barrels are pointed at your own head and you've just pulled the trigger. Anyone punting anyone up the arse to push them out of the way or into the boonies deserves to be punished for gaining an unfair advantage. They can rub door to door as much as they like, but square-on front to rear contact is a yellow/red card offence. By the way, I'm a fan of neither driver concerned.

OVERSTEER · 25 Apr 2002, 11:45 (Ref:270240)

Well a simalar incident to the Chilton/Harvey incident at exactly the same place happened between Rydell and Reid in 1998 where Reid tapped Rydell wide, in that incident Reid got penalised a place, but nothing happened to Chilton, WHY?
I ask that question because it was an oh so very slight tap by Reid into Rydell but Chilton hit Harvey very hard indeed, enough to put him in the gravel, In the BTCC there seems to be a bit of an inconsistency with the stewards decisions, very much like F1 I think.

KA · 25 Apr 2002, 12:02 (Ref:270249)

Quote:

Originally posted by touring_car_fan
I think that its really bad that Tim Harvey has been penalised for not changing a wheel. How can he recieve a penalty for something that didn't gain him anything and wasn't his fault, when Tom Chilton gets away with murder at Brands! TH didn't gain any time in the pits (they still had to change the other side), or on the race track (only 1 new tyre!), so i dont think it was worthy of such a heavy penalty. On the other hand, TC punts off someone on the last lap to gain a place, and gets no penalty at all! And to top it off, he will get 2nd place's balast for next race! Absolutly none of which was his fault! Personally i feel sorry for TH this season so far!

There's a big difference between the two incidents though- any on-track incident between drivers is always open to interpretation (just think how long people have been talking about Soper & Cleland at Silverstone 92...), so the penalty comes down to the judgement of the stewards. Something like the pitstop is a simple rule- the team changes two wheels- if they don't, then they're penalized. There's no question of being able to interpret it in any other way than what happened, so there's no real room to argue over a penalty

OVERSTEER · 25 Apr 2002, 12:05 (Ref:270252)

Well because TOCA's standard hub assembly f*cked up Harveys suffers, that's so ****ed up.

OVERSTEER · 25 Apr 2002, 12:06 (Ref:270253)

So in effect TC Has screwed Harvey out of a good race result and TOCA have too.

jase · 25 Apr 2002, 12:19 (Ref:270262)

Quote:

Originally posted by touring_car_fan
I think that its really bad that Tim Harvey has been penalised for not changing a wheel. How can he recieve a penalty for something that didn't gain him anything and wasn't his fault, when Tom Chilton gets away with murder at Brands! TH didn't gain any time in the pits (they still had to change the other side), or on the race track (only 1 new tyre!), so i dont think it was worthy of such a heavy penalty. On the other hand, TC punts off someone on the last lap to gain a place, and gets no penalty at all! And to top it off, he will get 2nd place's balast for next race! Absolutly none of which was his fault! Personally i feel sorry for TH this season so far!

Can we stop the "debate" on who's fault Brands was. Going BACK to the original point of this thread. In the touring car rules there is a section covering the madatory pit stop, in which:

Between laps X and Y a driver must stop at his/her pit, have 2 rip off's removed and change 2 wheels.

Simple enough, the team infringed the rules, end of story. I would ask whether the team has put in an official complaint about the penalty handed out, or as I suspect, have taken it on the chin and said that they'll get it right next time!

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