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Old 20 Sep 2008, 16:22 (Ref:2294232)   #1
matarleton
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Track Design

Inseveral of the threads I have followed, track design topics range from safety (or lack thereof), to pit entry and exit, to runoffs, length of straights and length of tracks. A thread was started where FIA rules are posted and I thought more design aspects would have been addressed.

So...

Here are my ideal parameters

1- Course length of less than 4 miles and more than 2. No super long tracks. They have such super long straights that drivers get weary of the very long period of flat out each lap. Ex: Take a Formula Ford out on a "roval" course at Daytona or Charlotte.

2- By extension from Point 1, no super long straights. Alot of roadcourses that are too long have straights that are too long. Conversely, each course should have one good length straight where high speeds can be achieved.

3- Safety. The track must be designed from the beginning with safety in mind.

4- Character. Many new tracks seem to have no character. They seem to be large and very plain outside of the track itself.

5- A course designed for the masses that also can be configured to be a challenging professional course. This may be best achieved by allowing the track to be split into two.

Any other thoughts?

Matt
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Old 20 Sep 2008, 17:17 (Ref:2294279)   #2
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Well, what's too long for a full lap, and what's too long for a straight? And are there exceptions to those two rules, in your mind?
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Old 20 Sep 2008, 18:03 (Ref:2294299)   #3
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I guess that depends on your vehicle of choice (who are you designing the track for... the masses, F1, etc.) and what you would see as a challenging and fun lap. The reason why I do not like long straights is because they are directly proportional to long laps. Longer straights and longer laps have a tendency to showcase the top end speed of the vehicle and not the driver or the fine cornering abilities of the vehicle.

For me personally, I have never felt quite that bad about being beaten by a vehicle that could only pass me on straights and that I could either close on or pass outside of the straight areas.

Therefore, my emphasis on a mid-ranged track length of 2.5 - 3 miles in length allows for a long enough straightaway for vehicles to hit their topend and then back down to go into the rest of the course. I also don't prefer the longest straight to be at the start/finish. For example: my latest track design (the one that is being built), has the shortest straight at the start/finish and the longest is the back stretch at almost 1000 meters.

Less than 2 miles is too short for competition, especially if it is less than 14 or 15 turns. Less turns means longer straights. How long is too long? To me, anything over 3.5 miles.

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Old 20 Sep 2008, 20:47 (Ref:2294368)   #4
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for me

Length: 2.3 to 4 miles

If there are more then 18 corners, the track is too slow. Keep the corners down to 12 to 16 corners. A corner is 30* or greater. 4 corners per mile average.

Longest straights: 4000 feet is good. Need straights to get speeds up over 125 mph for most cars. Dont always need to do 170 mph

too much slow corners boars drivers. and so does too much high speed sections. a good mix.

Elevation changes are a must. Not a lot 30 feet to 100 feet is great. Dead flat tracks can also be boaring.

What else??

I like high speed carousels and high speed Esses. and technically demanding corners; off camber decreasing radius, double apex. ie no one can get it right

Occasionally, One track I drive, a very very tight corner. 110*. Many ppl hate this, but some times, that is a place to put the metal to the floor.

Corners like these hurt momentum cars, but torque monsters, can handle these.
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Old 20 Sep 2008, 22:37 (Ref:2294418)   #5
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Sorry Matt, but you opened the door for this. So, Road America, Sebring, Miller, Spa, Le Mans Paul Ricard, Nurburgring, Monza, and Suzuka are too long? And I suppose Portland, Lime Rock, and the old Laguna Seca aren't good circuits either because they're too short?

I think there should still be some car circuits where slipstreaming plays a significant role, and for that, you want a straight of at least 1200m. And really, 1500+m is the range you want to assure that's what you get (serious slipstreaming I mean).

I'm far more concerned with having a circuit that has individuality rather than trying to MAKE it a mix of everything. And like I've said, my tracks that I "design" don't come out nearly as well as those that I just let happen. I also must admit that, of the designs I've liked and put particular detail into, four of them are under 4 miles by my estimates.

I've worked varying levels of more significant detail (things beyond outright length and course outline) on about 12 of my designs (that's out of hundreds of track outlines I've drawn up). There is a fifth in that group of 12 or so that is under 4 miles, but I find it too "designed" compared to the others. The longest track in the batch I've estimated at 9 miles. Given that it folds on itself a few times though, it doesn't take up as much area as you'd think. I suppose I think of it as an ideal endurance sportscar circuit.
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Old 20 Sep 2008, 23:25 (Ref:2294432)   #6
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My parameters for a good circuit would be:

4 km it's just fine.
800-1000 mts main straight is enuff.
one each of curve types, I like double apex, carrousell,long sweepers,hairpins, succesive 90 deg flipping sides(a la Donington Park) and if possible elevation changes in corner areas.Some slow corners are to be had as well as high speed corners.

All corners shall have more run-off than needed,you can't have too much safety.Grass run-off is OK but must have gravel pit 20 meters away from the next wall, wich shall be covered with energy absorbing entity such as AirFence(for motorcycle racing) haybales or tire barriers.

In general,I agree with Matt that super long circuits with super long straights are boring and doesn't test anything but the top speed of your vehicle.Also,a too long straight tend to blow engines as well.
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Old 21 Sep 2008, 03:15 (Ref:2294475)   #7
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Purist, if you read my original post, nothing more than 4 miles. My preference is mid-ranged tracks as per post #3 of 2.5 to 3 miles. Tracks shorter than 2.5 miles are fine for some but less than 2 miles and you are just getting either too tight or not enough turns. I believe I mentioned a balance.

Some of the very long tracks are simply best for F1, ALMS, Indy... high speed. I prefer a design for the masses that also appeals to higher speed vehicles. If you can achieve that then you have really done your job.

As far as Tom and Luiggis posts, I agree that a good balance of types of corners is key. We seem to agree mostly on length.

By the way, for those that like Sebring, rethink elevation changes. Sebring has very little elevation change. The highest point you can put a car on is the drive over bridge to the paddock... by far!

What is interesting in the posts are the design influence differences between three people that I know race compared to one that I know doesn't (for reasons I am also aware of). Amazing how the view of the spectator is different from the view of the racer.

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Old 21 Sep 2008, 04:35 (Ref:2294482)   #8
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I can understand having some tracks with more of a balance, but I also like tracks that are more specialized. That was something that made racing more interesting in the past in some ways. Into the early '70s, you couldn't be competitive at all the rounds of the World Sportscar Championship with a single model of car because the demands of the different circuits varied so much. You would be very lucky to get a podium at the Targa Florio with a car that was quite capable of winning the Spa 1000km.

Sebring is kind of an oddball in a number of ways. Also, though it is 3.7 miles to the lap, its longest straight is little more than 3,000ft in length.

The trouble anymore seems to be that tracks are largely designed for club racing or F1. New F1 circuits often seem rather formulaic, and don't necessarily produce good racing. The trend in club circuits seems to emphasize relatively short straights (generally 2,000ft or less), an overabundance of slow or medium speed corners, and often an overabundance of corners period.
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Old 21 Sep 2008, 13:39 (Ref:2294638)   #9
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Purist, I actually agree with you.

There definitely is a place for purpose built tracks. I would say that the new F1 circuits, while purpose built, are rather "surgical" feeling (hard to describe in one adjective what I am saying).

Most club circuits are designed to be slower for fear of liability because most clubs do not want to limit their customers and drivers, so, they let less experienced people out on the track.

Between the surgical purpose built tracks and the lesser club tracks is where my track fits in and this is the balance I have been talking about. I do think that a few club tracks (purpose built to be slower and more inclusive to everyone) and the surgical F1 tracks have their purpose as well but in general tracks should be more balanced.

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Old 21 Sep 2008, 13:53 (Ref:2294650)   #10
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My Favorite tracks:

VIR ( home track)
Road Atlanta
Mid Ohio
Road America

Tracks yet to run
Watkins Glenn
Sebring
Mosport
Matt's new track

tracks on the Bucket list
Leguna Secca
Sears Point
Daytona Road course
Neurenburg ( sp?)

Did not list European or Asian tracks, as not likely to get there to race or drive
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 13:41 (Ref:2295236)   #11
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I like your track yet to run list!
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 15:03 (Ref:2295299)   #12
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I like your track yet to run list!
Not letting you off easy.

I want an engraved invitation to come run your track.


Tom
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 15:06 (Ref:2295302)   #13
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Does it have to be engraved? Unless something huge goes wrong, it looks like its a go! Going to take a while to build though.

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Old 22 Sep 2008, 16:00 (Ref:2295358)   #14
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Naw Just an invite.

What are you looking at 20-24 months?
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Old 22 Sep 2008, 16:30 (Ref:2295376)   #15
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Right now we are looking at commencing track construction by the latest Jan. 2010 and as early as 12 months out from now. This is after all infrastructure such as utilities, access roads, zoning, etc. have been approved and either complete or are under construction. We should be able to have the track and scoring tower completed first around by the latest the end of 2010. If everything goes well from the beginning, we could be looking at a track opening as early as the Spring of 2010, if everything goes as slow as anticipated, opening Dec. 2010 or Jan 2011.

I have been working on this project for quite some time and now that things are coming together, we couldn't be more excited.

Matt
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Old 23 Sep 2008, 13:44 (Ref:2296091)   #16
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Does everyone on this board that are designing these tracks think they are F1 designers? It seems that the only tracks people will theortically design for is F1. Also, everyone compares their track elements to others. Is it really design if you can say that this turn is like Barcelona and this approach is like Spa? Will their designs ever be more than just cut and paste compilations of other tracks?

Is it all fantasy? Is anyone on this forum actually an aspiring designer or a current designer besides myself and Luiggi?

These "designers" seem to thumb their noses at business and guidelines becuase it interferes with some "art form" they seem to be subscribing to. How about reality?

Matt
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Old 23 Sep 2008, 13:46 (Ref:2296092)   #17
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BTW, am I the only one on this board that draws in CAD?

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Old 23 Sep 2008, 13:58 (Ref:2296104)   #18
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I think it's more that we may recognize elements that resemble parts of real-world tracks in each others tracks. Occasionally, we probably do have real tracks on our minds when we draw up our designs, andthere are advantages in this in mentally seeing things that really do or don't work.
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Old 23 Sep 2008, 16:00 (Ref:2296205)   #19
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Originally Posted by matarleton
Does everyone on this board that are designing these tracks think they are F1 designers? It seems that the only tracks people will theortically design for is F1. Also, everyone compares their track elements to others. Is it really design if you can say that this turn is like Barcelona and this approach is like Spa? Will their designs ever be more than just cut and paste compilations of other tracks?

Is it all fantasy? Is anyone on this forum actually an aspiring designer or a current designer besides myself and Luiggi?

These "designers" seem to thumb their noses at business and guidelines becuase it interferes with some "art form" they seem to be subscribing to. How about reality?

Matt
For may of us F1 circuits are the only circuits which we get to see in real detail due to the TV coverage. While Club and National meetings may have TV coverage, it's trackside, with no Helicopter shots etc that allow an overview.
Likewise for those of us who actually attend Club, National meetings or even F1, spectator perspective of corners is very different again from on-board TV pictures etc.

So in some ways F1 becomes a default simply because it is the most usable reference.

Regarding is it all Fantasy, for the most part I'd say yes. On the main forum page the blurb for the my tracks section states...
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Building on the success of the "My Tracks" thread there is now a specific sub-forum for the budding and not so budding track designers on Ten-Tenths.
This space has always been a mixture of "back of a school book" doodles and computer generated images ranging from single line using MS Paint or similar through to "GIMP" and now Sketch-up.
Having said that I think we'd all like to think that given a lottery win, we would give body parts for the chance evolve one of our designs into reality.

I don't think it's thumbing their noses. Given that for the most part it's fantasy, business models really aren't part of the thinking.
I think also there is a cultural difference around the world in what would work in terms of a business model. Luiggi has suggested a Drag strip as the main money maker where he is, you have commented on being able to split the circuit and run two events simultaneously, where as where I live I can't see a purpose build drag strip breaking even, and can't really see enough business to support a secondary paddock facility either.
Don't get me wrong, there is Drag strips that operate but they are based on the runways of disused airfields. And there is tracks which can support an event and a race school at the same time. My own local track runs a rally "experience" on a section of the perimeter roads on the outside of the track at the same time as race "experience" on the track...though on Race Days the events are limited to the Track and it's karting centre.

Regarding CAD, at the moment you probably are. Bio before he was chased off started out with a CAD package (not sure which one) before trying out various other softwares. I'm working almost exclusively with the free version Sketch-up which is CAD like. I think most other people (sorry if I've mised anyone) are using a variety of Graphics packages rather than CAD.
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Old 23 Sep 2008, 16:21 (Ref:2296215)   #20
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Very Interesting anaylsis.

Dragstrips will make money everywhere and so will road courses. They both cater to the masses more than some may realize. They both make good money. Location is the biggest thing. Where I am and where Luiggi is, weather is not as big of an issue as the UK, CAnada or Northern US.

It doesn't take winning the lottery to see your track design getting built but it does take effort and a good business plan. Mine has been long in the making and what may have been the design 18 months ago has evolved as understanding of the sanctioning bodies views and the views of the business world have helped to shape my design.

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Old 23 Sep 2008, 21:57 (Ref:2296480)   #21
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and how many civil engineers are on this board?
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Old 23 Sep 2008, 22:48 (Ref:2296502)   #22
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Well, I know of one. Not me. I was a Physics major. Purist is an engineer. SBF is an elctrical engineer I think. Its why I argue with both of them.

Who says there is anything civil about engineers?

I think there is a definite difference in those who are more scientifically minded and those who are more artsy in their designs. Definitely a different approach between racers and non-racers.

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Old 24 Sep 2008, 01:32 (Ref:2296571)   #23
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I have always designed for smaller,club tracks,they haven't been big hits with the F1 crowd,but I'm not an F1 racer, in fact,I don't even know an F1 or F2 F3 or F4 for that matter.

But I sure know I have a passion for racing,I do twist my economical priorities every now and then,to get a fix and I will make a track happen,be it a small time club track or a huge,national level facility.
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Old 24 Sep 2008, 01:41 (Ref:2296577)   #24
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There is definitely a difference in design for those who hope to pitch their track design or are designing for a specific piece of land. Luiggi, I have noticed your recent track design and mine are both restricted by parameters with a specific piece of land and thus have restrictions others who "fantasy" design do not. That is because our designs are in the business world rather than fantasy. There is a place for dreaming, thats how we all start but even the dreamings of many should at least have some aspect of reality. Aspiring architects don't design buildings that can't be built or aren't structurally sound because that is not advancing their craft or hobby. Even the dreamers should design to a realistic standard.

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Old 24 Sep 2008, 11:43 (Ref:2296853)   #25
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Well, I know of one. Not me. I was a Physics major. Purist is an engineer. SBF is an elctrical engineer I think. Its why I argue with both of them.

Who says there is anything civil about engineers?

I think there is a definite difference in those who are more scientifically minded and those who are more artsy in their designs. Definitely a different approach between racers and non-racers.

Matt
that is why I would get board with only driving or racing on ONE track all the time.

and I am not civil either. might not be house broken. and I do bit.
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