Was Massa victim of team orders?

Kirk · 27 Apr 2006, 13:49 (Ref:1596249)

Speculation had it that Massa may have been "asked" by his team to hold up FA in the first part of San Marino. If so, and it sure seemed to be the case as his lap times slowed significantly, giving MS the gap he needed, it likely cost Massa his first podium. Welcome to Ferrari Felipe!

JeremySmith · 27 Apr 2006, 13:59 (Ref:1596257)

I have to ask what absolute proof do we have?

climb · 27 Apr 2006, 14:11 (Ref:1596264)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirk

Speculation had it that Massa may have been "asked" by his team to hold up FA in the first part of San Marino. If so, and it sure seemed to be the case as his lap times slowed significantly, giving MS the gap he needed, it likely cost Massa his first podium. Welcome to Ferrari Felipe!

And so what?

Let's be honest, walking in Todt's (and every Ferrari fan's) shoes, what would you prefer?
A win + 4th place or a 2nd+3rd place option?
In that stage of the race holding up Alonso was the most intelligent team strategy to follow.
Did this cost the podium to Massa? Who knows what would have happened if he bahaved differently?

JeremySmith · 27 Apr 2006, 14:16 (Ref:1596269)

Well what is being suggested here is that Michael could not get the job done without the support of Felipe Massa..

Gt_R · 27 Apr 2006, 15:02 (Ref:1596294)

Was Renault even a threat at that point in time?

To safeguard positions, maybe, but with or without, it doesnt make a difference to Michael coming out in front of Alonso after the first round of pitstop.

**Adam43** · 27 Apr 2006, 18:06 (Ref:1596416)

Oh no, how can this be?

Alan Raine · 27 Apr 2006, 18:20 (Ref:1596423)

Can't see Kimi sticking to Shumi's, sorry Ferrari's order if he went there.

Perhaps he should go there - That could be fun!

Sodemo · 27 Apr 2006, 18:27 (Ref:1596430)

Lets hear some of that Ferrari team radio, oops, no, we aren't allowed...

luke · 27 Apr 2006, 18:37 (Ref:1596441)

I have only this to say. ****ING team orders!!

Knowlesy · 27 Apr 2006, 18:39 (Ref:1596442)

An eloquent and reasoned opinion there, luke!

I have to say, I wasn't overly enamoured with Massa's slowing tactics....but it's part of the game I guess, just got to accept it. I hate it though!

Dani Filth · 27 Apr 2006, 18:49 (Ref:1596453)

Massa Alonso
from Lap 6 'till Massa pits
P3 : Massa +2.9 (+2.6) 1:26.583 0
P4 : Alonso +4.2 (+3.6) 1:26.795 0

P3 : Massa +3.7 (+3.2) 1:26.472 0
P4 : Alonso +5.1 (+4.6) 1:26.512 0

P3 : Massa +4.1 (+3.7) 1:26.160 0
P4 : Alonso +5.7 (+5.1) 1:26.297 0

P3 : Massa +4.4 (+4.1) 1:26.107 0
P4 : Alonso +6.1 (+5.7) 1:26.272 0

P3 : Massa +4.7 (+4.4) 1:26.061 0
P4 : Alonso +6.3 (+6.1) 1:25.957 0

P3 : Massa +5.2 (+4.7) 1:25.850 0
P4 : Alonso +6.9 (+6.3) 1:25.865 0

P3 : Massa +5.2 (+5.2) 1:25.528 0
P4 : Alonso +7.1 (+6.9) 1:25.782 0

P3 : Massa +6.1 (+5.2) 1:26.392 0
P4 : Alonso +7.5 (+7.1) 1:25.925 0

P3 : Massa +7.2 (+6.1) 1:26.287 0
P4 : Alonso +8.4 (+7.5) 1:26.118 0

P3 : Massa +7.7 (+7.2) 1:26.108 0
P4 : Alonso +9.3 (+8.4) 1:26.463 0

P2 : Massa +8.3 (+7.7) 1:26.058 0
P3 : Alonso +9.6 (+9.3) 1:25.779 0

P2 : Massa +10.2 (+8.3) 1:27.209 0
P3 : Alonso +10.8 (+9.6) 1:26.482 0

P2 : Massa +11.3 (+10.2) 1:26.237 0
P3 : Alonso +11.8 (+10.8) 1:26.216 0

mac · 28 Apr 2006, 00:32 (Ref:1596623)

I couldn't care less.

If Massa was in front of Michael, he would not have had to worry about it.

If you are behind your team mate and are in a position to help him win a race, why wouldn't you?

Marbot · 28 Apr 2006, 00:37 (Ref:1596627)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac

If you are behind your team mate and are in a position to help him win a race, why wouldn't you?

Because it could damage my championship hopes?

We are only four races in for heavens sake!

Dutton · 28 Apr 2006, 01:59 (Ref:1596657)

You could also argue that Alonso was never all over Massa's gearbox during that period.

Hein · 28 Apr 2006, 06:14 (Ref:1596698)

Massa could've done a hell of a lot more! We nearly lost that race (if it was not for Schumi's driving tactics in slowing down and fooling Renault).

If team orders were in place, I would've thought Massa ought to give Schumi a bigger gap. I don't think there was any orders.

And even if there were, I am all for it. This is F1 people, and Ferrari needed a win! Schumi needed a win! And I needed a win!

**Adam43** · 28 Apr 2006, 07:11 (Ref:1596722)

It is possible that Massa is just that slow.

Dani Filth · 28 Apr 2006, 08:32 (Ref:1596766)

he wasn't that slow .. he was just a bit slower than Alonso at that time .. Alonso caught him .. and of course he drove defensively .. slowing both .. but not to an alarming slow pace .. nothing like Schu experienced in the second stint.. when he was doing 28s even ..

1200Datto27 · 28 Apr 2006, 10:18 (Ref:1596853)

After plotting the time on a excel spreadsheet, there is a slight increase in laptimes shown, but nothing major that points to a deliberate "team order".

The other thing that I would like to know is what traffic was around them at the time, as usually when traffic is hit, the leading driver suffers a greater time loss.

luke · 28 Apr 2006, 11:09 (Ref:1596880)

Well maybe it was the car and a mixture of things to be fair. Suddenly Michael was 4 seconds slower and holding up Alonso when he was defending....

Mystery · 28 Apr 2006, 12:37 (Ref:1596900)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

It is possible that Massa is just that slow.

My thoughts entirely. I was amazed when the commentators started babbling on about team orders and my wife joined in moaning on about Massa helping Schumi and how he has had it far too easy with team mates. Cant dispute the second point but I wasnt convinced Massa was doing anything other than being a bit slow which is a role he's more than capable of fulfilling well

BootsOntheSide · 29 Apr 2006, 09:47 (Ref:1597416)

He was perfectly fast when he didn't have a rival car right behind him. It's unfortunate - maybe it's part of racing, but I don't recall it being done when there wasn't so much money in the sport. Ferrari didn't outrace Reanutl as much as they outsmarted them - Alonso personally did everythign right, but was scuppered by Pat's poor tactical call, Fisichella not being up there to help out, and above all the sheer difficulty of overtaking at Imola, whcih has gone beyond a joke.

Sodemo · 29 Apr 2006, 10:51 (Ref:1597446)

What Boots said.

Marbot · 29 Apr 2006, 11:00 (Ref:1597450)

Yeah,wot he said.

Menelaos · 29 Apr 2006, 16:36 (Ref:1597610)

+1.

The fact is you can't restrict team orders, let's be serious. What you CAN do is use tracks where overtaking is possible, and design cars that can actually overtake.

Gt_R · 29 Apr 2006, 18:56 (Ref:1597674)

I see alot of dirt being thrown at Pat for a "bad" tactical call.

The only thing that differentiates a "good" call and a "bad" call is one worked, the other didnt.

But more revealing is how in Michael and Brawn's case, the communication and instinct trust the guys have for each other that made many "stragetic gambles" become "good calls, such as Hungary '98.

Whereas in Pat/Alonso, it's all Pat's fault for making the wrong call. If i'm not mistaken, Pat did explain that he has told Alonso the option, and Alonso himself agreed to take up the gamble, but he couldnt make it pull off.

It shows two things. In a strategic call, it doesnt' always work. and secondly, as a partnership and individual brilliance, Pat/Alonso have some distance to catch up yet.

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