GP2 and GP3: Pros and Cons etc..

[Spudy]

What do people think about the new GP3 series?

Also do you think GP2 will have the strength to withstand the financial climate? Is it still the best junior formula?

[duke_toaster]

GP3 is another pointless series. It's just going to duplicate Renault's existing World Series Renault which also overlaps with GP2 to some extent.

I think the issue with GP2 is that it has little in the way of media profile, at least in the UK. I don't know what the costs are like, but all I'm going to say is that Bernie is involved. I wouldn't be surprised of the subtle Renault badging isn't exactly good for drivers for other teams.

To be honest I don't see the need for that many sets of technical regulations, the optimal system would be Formula Junior to Formula 3 to Formula 2 (as in a multi-chassis one, not Super Formula Palmer Audi) to Formula 1. One way the FIA could encourage such a system would be to modify the superlicence rules.

[Mak]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

GP3 is another pointless series. It's just going to duplicate Renault's existing World Series Renault which also overlaps with GP2 to some extent.

I think the issue with GP2 is that it has little in the way of media profile, at least in the UK. I don't know what the costs are like, but all I'm going to say is that Bernie is involved. I wouldn't be surprised of the subtle Renault badging isn't exactly good for drivers for other teams.

To be honest I don't see the need for that many sets of technical regulations, the optimal system would be Formula Junior to Formula 3 to Formula 2 (as in a multi-chassis one, not Super Formula Palmer Audi) to Formula 1. One way the FIA could encourage such a system would be to modify the superlicence rules.

The above system does exist... Formula renault, F3, GP2.. Problem is costs involved and most can not find budgets in current economic climate. This is why the F2 has managed full grids, being 2 to 3 times cheaper than F3...(nearer Formula Renault budgets)

[Sev]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

GP3 is another pointless series. It's just going to duplicate Renault's existing World Series Renault which also overlaps with GP2 to some extent.

I think the issue with GP2 is that it has little in the way of media profile, at least in the UK. I don't know what the costs are like, but all I'm going to say is that Bernie is involved. I wouldn't be surprised of the subtle Renault badging isn't exactly good for drivers for other teams.

To be honest I don't see the need for that many sets of technical regulations, the optimal system would be Formula Junior to Formula 3 to Formula 2 (as in a multi-chassis one, not Super Formula Palmer Audi) to Formula 1. One way the FIA could encourage such a system would be to modify the superlicence rules.

Whilst I agree with you in spirit, there's one slight issue:

GP3 is in no way a contender to WSR, and in fact won't add any new series. As far as I'm aware, its basically a re-branding of Formula Master, which competes with F3. How, I think Formula Master itself was a stupid idea, but that's somewhat besides the point.

[strider]

There's something about GP3 that has been kept fairly quiet so far and that is that although it has more power than F3 it is also 100kg heavier and so far, even in the hands of Romain Grosjean, has been slower.

[sauber11]

I like idea of Gp3 , F3ES has full 26 cars grid now, right?
Gp3 will have better race tracks\f1 ones , faster cars, bigger teams for the almost same price.
Also nevertheless financial crysis WSR and GP2 have full grids, so Gp3 for sure will find the drivers to compete. Not like f-master did ( first year 26 driver, then about 20, now 12), but on a long time distance like gp2.

100kg heavier and so far, even in the hands of Romain Grosjean, has been slower.

Where is that information from?

[Spudy]

The GP3 car is going to be slower in slow corners than the F3 cars but I heard this will be more like F1 and GP2. It will be faster elsewhere.

I believe it is too early to comment on the performance, I believe they have only tested reliability etc they are yet to set the performance levels on the car. They will ensure the GP3 car is faster than F3 so I guess they will do this with downforce and the engine.

I also have a feeling that WSR is in trouble and this series may fold into GP3 but I guess we'll have to wait to see what happens there.

GP2 really does need to have a better media profile, perhaps they will get a push with 2 series.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Spudy

I also have a feeling that WSR is in trouble and this series may fold into GP3 but I guess we'll have to wait to see what happens there.

GP2 really does need to have a better media profile, perhaps they will get a push with 2 series.

Is WSR FR 3.5 in trouble? It doesn't seem like it is so far this season. It'll only be in trouble, arguably, if Renault pull the package backing which they don't show any signs of doing. it has worked very well for the last half dozen years and longer in its current guise and is a very good option for career drivers who either need to move on/bypass from F3 or can't afford GP2 yet.

GP3 is effectively Formula Master isn't it, so it will simply replace the FM name as originally thought.

GP2 will only get a 'bigger' profile if Flavio/Bernie/Bruno Michel decide to do it. During the off season at the end of the current season I think that a new more easily acceessable and more appropriate tv deal will be signed but with whom I don't know!!! I'm guessing GP2 and GP3 will be part of a tv package?

[kerrmanningjarv]

I thought they said that GP3 would not replace IFM, it would be an entirely different series?

Originally it was said that GP3 would replace IFM but then I seem to remember seeing that it would not be the case.

(However with IFM's tiny grids this season, it may as well become GP3 anyway).

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Spudy

The GP3 car is going to be slower in slow corners than the F3 cars but I heard this will be more like F1 and GP2. It will be faster elsewhere.

That should be right - it's going to be more powerful but won't have the F3 style power to grip ratio that could be seen as a problem.

[Francis Albert]

Originally Posted by kerrmanningjarv

I thought they said that GP3 would not replace IFM, it would be an entirely different series?

Originally it was said that GP3 would replace IFM but then I seem to remember seeing that it would not be the case.

(However with IFM's tiny grids this season, it may as well become GP3 anyway).

That is correct, AFAIK. F Master was going to turn into GP3 but that won't happen anymore.

Also, from what I've heard, WSbyR had considerable problems in filling the grid this year (nothing like F Master though). Maybe now things are a bit more stable but at the start of the season it didn't look very good.

[the sniper]

Originally Posted by kerrmanningjarv

I thought they said that GP3 would not replace IFM, it would be an entirely different series?

Originally it was said that GP3 would replace IFM but then I seem to remember seeing that it would not be the case.

As Francis says, this is the case. I still don't understand what happened to the IFM deal though or even know where it came from in the first place...

[Fox89]

I don't think it's a pointless series at all. At the end of the day it is extra racing seats for drivers who want them, and if eurosport or someone gets a TV deal then more racing for us to watch on the telly! Surely if its competing against something like F3, then the best series will prevail in the end? I'm all for this.

GP2 really does need to have a better media profile, perhaps they will get a push with 2 series

GP2 is becoming more and more well known as time goes on though. Especially this year when Setanta were showing it for a while. Half the UK had Setanta cause of all the football it showed and what they got was an excellent racing series. And with all the hype about Lewis Hamilton "Oh he came up through GP2..." over the last few years I get the feeling its coming closer to the front of the public eye.

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by Fox89

IGP2 is becoming more and more well known as time goes on though. Especially this year when Setanta were showing it for a while. Half the UK had Setanta cause of all the football it showed and what they got was an excellent racing series. And with all the hype about Lewis Hamilton "Oh he came up through GP2..." over the last few years I get the feeling its coming closer to the front of the public eye.

You think Setanta was better than ITV1?

If half the UK population had Setanta subscriptions, why did the business fail? LOL.

[Fox89]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

You think Setanta was better than ITV1?

If half the UK population had Setanta subscriptions, why did the business fail? LOL.

GP2 was on ITV1!? I thought it was ITV4, and yeah I always thought Setanta had the edge on that. Anyway, I wont argue this any further because honestly I dont have the facts and figures, so you're probably right that it needs more media attention. But I was just trying to say that the GP2 feels like its been steadily gathering public attention...but maybe I'm wrong.

[JohnMiller]

I might be wrong but I thought it was on ITV1, usually a week late, after the F1 qualifying.

[Mak]

Originally Posted by Fox89

I don't think it's a pointless series at all. At the end of the day it is extra racing seats for drivers who want them, and if eurosport or someone gets a TV deal then more racing for us to watch on the telly! Surely if its competing against something like F3, then the best series will prevail in the end? I'm all for this.



GP2 is becoming more and more well known as time goes on though. Especially this year when Setanta were showing it for a while. Half the UK had Setanta cause of all the football it showed and what they got was an excellent racing series. And with all the hype about Lewis Hamilton "Oh he came up through GP2..." over the last few years I get the feeling its coming closer to the front of the public eye.

The current economic climate should give the us the inputus to streamline the racing ladder. We do not need another overpriced racing series. We should be cutting down on the number of series. Increase the quality rather than quantity. Lets get back to the days when all drivers followed the same path instead of dilluting the competition. Some people seem to think its all rosey out there, But most series are struggling, Half the Renault World Series grid is subsidised by Renault so as not to look bad in 2009. Most GP2 teams are finding it hard to get their money in at the moment. All are tying to apear to be doing well but even the more established team are in trouble. Next year is going to be even harder and drastic cost cutting needs to occur within the current series.

[Spudy]

I think the problem is that there are to mnay junior formulas out there and as a result sponsorship money is spread thin across them.

I think if IFM, WSR, Superleague, A1GP and F3000 all disappeared you would have more competition to get drives in the better series' and there would be more money to put into them.

I don't think there is any competition to GP2 out there as the cars, set up and the teams are pretty close to F1 as you can get for that money. But you still need the smaller cars to work your way up to that. I personally haven't been impressed with F BMW.

I hear GP3 is going to be around 600k - 620k Euros. I guess they will race maybe 8 races supporting F1 with GP2 so perhaps they will drop the more expensive rounds like Turkey or Monaco. With a quicker car and f1 support I think GP3 would be very strong. I wonder what teams will get in I presume some of the grid will be made up of current GP2 teams but I have a gut feeling some of the grid will also be made up of WSR teams. Carlin has been itching to get into GP2 so maybe GP3 will be the best way in. Entry for GP2 will be reveiwed again at the end of next season as it has a 3 year process and being part of GP3 would help a team in if GP2 decided to make a change to the teams.

We'll know in September.

[jondownunder]

There are a ridiculous number of series now, and I can't believe some people are saying another one at F3/IFM/F2 level will be a good thing!

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

I might be wrong but I thought it was on ITV1, usually a week late, after the F1 qualifying.

I think that was the case until the end of 2007 when Eurosport had the live rights, but when ITV won them for 2008 it was live on ITV4 only.

[Jackman]

A couple of points:

Originally Posted by Francis Albert

That is correct, AFAIK. F Master was going to turn into GP3 but that won't happen anymore.

Also, from what I've heard, WSbyR had considerable problems in filling the grid this year (nothing like F Master though). Maybe now things are a bit more stable but at the start of the season it didn't look very good.

F Master was not going to turn into GP3: that just wasn't on the cards. The GP3 car is completely bespoke, and designed by Dallara: F Master is designed by Tatuus, and is a very different car.

I do wonder about the 'stability' at WSR: I've noticed a lot of GP2 drivers dropping down to do some races, presumably to learn the tracks ahead of the GP2 race (or in Herck's case, to get some idea about the place before crashing on the front straight...). That doesn't strike me as a strong plan for the future of the series if drivers are dropping in and out at a whim: things happen, but they seem to have a big turnover.

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

GP3 is another pointless series. It's just going to duplicate Renault's existing World Series Renault which also overlaps with GP2 to some extent.

I think the issue with GP2 is that it has little in the way of media profile, at least in the UK. I don't know what the costs are like, but all I'm going to say is that Bernie is involved. I wouldn't be surprised of the subtle Renault badging isn't exactly good for drivers for other teams.

It's clear that GP3 will overlap with a few series, and WSR would be one of them, along with the various F3s: the point is GP3 will be on the F1/GP2 calendar, and competing in front of the guys they want to impress. Obviously GP3 will want to steal talent from the other series, but to be fair there are way too many series out there already, and it wouldn't be a bad thing to clean up the ladder a bit.

As for GP2, I don't think their media profile is that bad: it's on the F1 package and therefore in front of the mainstream journalists, and junior racing is never going to be of that much interest to Joe Public. What it clearly does need is better TV.

Originally Posted by strider

There's something about GP3 that has been kept fairly quiet so far and that is that although it has more power than F3 it is also 100kg heavier and so far, even in the hands of Romain Grosjean, has been slower.

Not sure where you're getting that: everything I've heard says that the GP3 is already faster than F3. It's pretty obvious that they are the target.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Jackman

I do wonder about the 'stability' at WSR: I've noticed a lot of GP2 drivers dropping down to do some races, presumably to learn the tracks ahead of the GP2 race (or in Herck's case, to get some idea about the place before crashing on the front straight...). That doesn't strike me as a strong plan for the future of the series if drivers are dropping in and out at a whim: things happen, but they seem to have a big turnover.

this wasn't really the case in the past few years though, just this season. there was the odd team with a high turnover rate but that's the case in any series, and it's probably a good thing. is it the stability in the long term through the cruddy bits of the economy recovery that is a concern, or just the habit some really well-off drivers have of going in to do some extra racing?

perhaps it's just fallen victim to the red bull trend of doing more than one series at once, and as such, when another trend comes along we'll see fewer drivers doing both?

[Mak]

There seems to be some beleif that being on the F1 programme is a good thing! The fact that you are competing in front of F1 means very little, and most personnel at these meetings have very little time to pay attention to junior formula. Even Gp2 only gets a passing glance so an even lower formula would get nothing( except the extra costs) by being a minor player in the show. Red Bulls replacement has not even come from GP2!

[topper]

I notice that GP2 is back on Eurosport, following the collapse of Setanta.

It would make sense to piggy back GP3 onto any GP2 TV deal for next season, for when both series are supporting F1.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Mak

There seems to be some beleif that being on the F1 programme is a good thing! The fact that you are competing in front of F1 means very little, and most personnel at these meetings have very little time to pay attention to junior formula. Even Gp2 only gets a passing glance so an even lower formula would get nothing( except the extra costs) by being a minor player in the show. Red Bulls replacement has not even come from GP2!

Sorry Mak, that's not on the money.

GP2 is keenly watched by the power brokers (forget what Ronzo said a couple of years back...)

Flavio and Bernie were/are prime movers behind GP2 and it has already proven a pefect final stomping grounf for drivers prior to F1.

F3 has also always had the eyes of F1 bosses and major corporates. Remember the fag firms with their dayglo/white cars and the yellow cars which were in most of the junior formula all the way up to F1.

The GP3 organisers have seen what GP2 has done in carving it's own space on the F1 package. They obviously feel that there is room/scope to be exploited for a 'lower' still, serious category which will use the F1 bill and all its exposure potential to compete very strongly with F3 which by comparison has a much more limited lvel of mainstream exposure potential.

The exposure part of this is spot on, but it remains to be seen whether GP3 can actually take on F3 and win....

[Taprobane]

I think it's fairly obvious GP is watched. In the last few years we have has Rosberg, Kovalainen, Hamilton, Piquet, Glock adnd Buemi all join F1 from GP2