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17 Dec 2003, 16:14 (Ref:814208)
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,215
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Pesca's Solution for Cheap Power
As promised in the LMES Updates thread, here is my new topic....
In that thread, Fab posted that Henri will probably have to settle again with the Sodemo-built Peugeot engines.... In this thread, I will make a case for why de doesn't have to "settle" for those engines at all... I expanded my search for cost-effective equipment after starting the "LMP1 on a Shoestring" thread, and I came up with a "Dirt Cheap" engine option that has benn run with success in endurance racing both as a normally-aspirated option and as a turbo: The Cost-Effective Solution to Pesca's Power Problem: The Aurora 4.0L or the Aurora 3.5L V-8 Why??? 1. I have found at least 4 of them on-line, race ready, for $18,000-$22,000 each...If Henri buys them with EuroDollars at the current exchange rate, they will be even cheaper than that per unit... 2. The Aurora engines apparently no longer fall under the IRL licensing agreements (especially the 4.0's since they haven't been run in that series since 1999) and there seem to be quite a few of them on the market if you just look...and there are builders from the IRL experience that know them inside and out... The big hurdle with this as an option whe we've brought this up in the past was "you can't get them even if you wanted one" because of the licensing.... If I can buy one on the net, race ready, for $20,000....that hurdle has just been cleared.... 3. The 4.0L version of this engine was the powerplant of choice that the Riley & Scott factory effort raced with Wayne Taylor to win the 1995 24 hrs of Daytona and the 12 hrs of Sebring...so it CAN go the distance and CAN be tuned to run endurance...also can be tuned to run on petrol...just a matter of taking them to the builder who tuned them for R&S.... It also is the same engine configuration and has the same engine management and EFI systems as the Northstar 4.0 L engines that Team Cadillac campaigned with over the past 3 years... All they did was "Badge" it different... which leads me to: 4. To take it one step further, the plumbing and the turbo information is also available from whoever built or serviced the Cadillac engines....I have no doubt that the turbo package and the intakes/exhaust management and hardware could either be recreated or mimicked by a SEMA supplier or developer for a good price... My estimate is that you could do it for about $30,000 of added money, to make the total cost per engine about $50,000 a piece.....maybe $60,000 each at the most via the SEMA route.... A cheaper route would be to go to Whipple Superchargers to create a supercharged vesion of the Aurora V-8, and you could save about $10,000 on wastegates and other plumbing that the Whipple unti would not need, provided you could create an intake manifold that the blower would mount directly onto (set within the "V" of the heads) the manifold....Whipple blowers have broad spectrum of interface capabilities, and chips also exist via SEMA vendors to put a blower with the Northstar system... To answer issues to be raised up front: 1. Reliability??? Answer: The four LMES events are 620 miles each...these engines go 500 miles at full bore in the IRL...with a solid reliability record and a lot of power....get rid of the rev limiters and they will easily pump more than 700 hp....de-tune it for added reliability and you'll still get power on-par with a Judd, if not better... the N/A version in the R&S factory effort engine went 24 hrs at Daytona and 12 at Sebring...and the Turbo version finished the 24 hrs at LM in 2002....on road courses that would require constant shifting, running through the full range of the rpm cycle, etc....so issues concerning whether or not this engine would be able to adapt to the wear and tear of road racing are not an issue at all... Thus, you have case history of its application to this specific type of racing with success..and reliability... It's an even better bet for the ALMS schedule...with the exception of Petit & Sebring, nearly all of their races are about 300-350 miles, and Road America is 500 miles...they have proved they can run it... 2. Power with Restrictors, Power Band Ranges not suited, etc...???? Answer: Cadillac's effort should answer that one for you....and I'm sure that any number of builders with IRL experience (Speedway Engines...whom I believe were the same guys who built the 4.0 Auroras for R&S in 1995, as an example) that could get the power and reliability with restrictors from these engines... 3. Gearboxes and Gearing??? Answer: The Caddy ran an Emco front mount 6-speed gearbox on this exact engine for the last 3 years....their data and gearing info would be your baseline to start from....they are available as well...and they will mount to this engine due to it being the same block, etc. as the Caddy... So if Henri Pescarolo feels that he can't afford competitive power, he's not looking hard enough.... I found a cheap option ($20,000 US per engine) that could be run normally-aspirated with about $10,000 in tweaks to set it up for endurance racing.... And I found these options in less than a week worht of looking... In EuroDollars, the cost per engine would be less than that $30,000 each...Can't get much cheaper than that.... I've made my case... Now it's your turn... I've got the flak jacket on and the sand bags piled high... Your Thoughts??? |
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Finally... One American Open Wheel Series! 
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17 Dec 2003, 16:25 (Ref:814217)
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,536
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Bravo Tim once again you have eagle eyes, and see wht many are missing.
To add to your note- the Opel V8 used in DTM is based off the Aurora 4.0 IRL motor- it run explosion free for the season, it didn't do terrific and only made 450 HP or so, but it is stout, add turbos like the Caddy and some more development and these can fall right behind the VAG monsters (or even beat them with some luck) unless the pescarolo team has a better chassis that has been simply underpowered. I do believe this same engine ran the 24 hours of nurburgring (nordschlief) and did the whol 24 hours, so I good choice indeed. this might even work well for the Shoestring LMP. |
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SuperTrucks rule- end of story. Listen to my ramblings! Follow my twitter @davidAET I am shameless ...
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17 Dec 2003, 16:28 (Ref:814223)
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Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 6,699
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Did you email the link to Pescarolo Racing? Good searching Tim. I believe that would be my powerplant of choice in your "shoestring budget" thread.
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"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein
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17 Dec 2003, 16:31 (Ref:814226)
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Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,482
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Tim, the sportscars word, if certainly not needing me, definitely needs you !
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17 Dec 2003, 16:32 (Ref:814229)
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 840
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Great research Tim. It just goes to show that if you look hard enough there's always an alternative. What has he got to lose, he won't beat the Audi's with the Peugeot.
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17 Dec 2003, 16:36 (Ref:814235)
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Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,482
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Quote:
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17 Dec 2003, 20:31 (Ref:814465)
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Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,010
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Something i just thought of while looking at the 48 mustang I posted a picture of earlier.
That car used basically a NASCAR Busch series engine and made 550-650hp depending on who you asked. it was a Ford 351 based block. These engines should be considered as optional too, it would take some working with an EFI system (though a carbuerated LMP would be a trip) but they too run at full bore for 300-500 miles at a time, easily rev to 8 or 9k and have a very proven design. Add to that the fact that you could use parts not allowed in T/A or G/A and you could easily make a bulletproof NASCAR style motor that would make the power where you wanted when you wanted. |
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17 Dec 2003, 21:07 (Ref:814495)
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,536
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of course the Nascar style motors are alway on our mind- hence the sprinters, but the cost of the motors is a bit more expensive than Most of what has been presented isn't it. the original panoz motor was a Yates built unit wasn't it, or was it roush? either one these are the main players in customer motors, Didn't Yates develop the Ford motors for the V8stars series in europe 5.7L pushrod V8 with 550 BHP, not bad...
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SuperTrucks rule- end of story. Listen to my ramblings! Follow my twitter @davidAET I am shameless ...
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17 Dec 2003, 21:19 (Ref:814509)
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Veteran
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Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Oops
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17 Dec 2003, 21:37 (Ref:814526)
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Yates was involved with the first Panoz engine development program...in the GT-1
When the whole Elan 6.0 project got started, they hired a couple of the Yates people who were on that program to set up the Elan program... Zytek was involved in teh 4.0L Panoz engine project for the LMP-07 car... that's they way I understand it, anyway.... |
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Finally... One American Open Wheel Series!
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17 Dec 2003, 22:00 (Ref:814556)
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#11 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Sep 1998
Posts: 2,762
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I think he has a great point. The only problem with that particular version of the IRL engine is that the lower end of the block was not designed for high torque, low RPM applications.
When the IRL changed the engine rules to encourage Toyota to enter, the lower end engine specifications were changed to allow 4 bolt main bearing caps and wider and thicker main bearing webs in the block. As the IRL engines only spent a few seconds at a time at low rpm, full throttle application in a normal oval race, a two-bolt main cap and narrow block web sufficed. Obviously for sportscar racing the engine will be required to operate reliably at all rpm ranges and this would need some work to address. Another consideration is that the original engine design was an unstressed chassis member. It takes a block with exceptional torsional strength to be used as a chassis member and the old 4.0 liter engine was not used this way in the back of the IRL car. I am not sure if the engine is stressed in the sports car chassis, but this must be considered also. |
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Never forget #99
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17 Dec 2003, 22:12 (Ref:814572)
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,215
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Good points...
Bu this engien is virtually the same engien that the Caddy ran for the last 3 years....just badged differently... and the original version of teh engine ran just fine in 1995 in the R&S when it won Daytona and Sebring.... |
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Finally... One American Open Wheel Series!
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17 Dec 2003, 22:17 (Ref:814581)
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Veteran
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Posts: 13,763
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18 Dec 2003, 01:51 (Ref:814761)
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Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,010
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Not to dwell on the NASCAR engines, but I did mention to run a Busch series engine, which would be a much cheaper engine than a Cup engine.
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18 Dec 2003, 11:47 (Ref:815007)
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Racer
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 386
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Great job, Tim. Congrats!
 BTW, I don't think any of the chassis designed for 'customer' engines uses the engine as a stressed member. AFAIK, they all use semi-stressing and trunions to carry the loads. Even an early 4.0 Caddy/IRL/Olds/etc motor should do fine in that environment. |
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Stan Clayton Dauntless Racing
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18 Dec 2003, 12:34 (Ref:815042)
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Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
An Aurora derivate was also used in the Opel DTM Astras. |
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Oops
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18 Dec 2003, 18:21 (Ref:815423)
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Racer
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 204
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Quote:
And I don't think it's only a matter of finding cheap engines for Pesca, it's a matter of making up the difference in funding for his team that Peugeot gave him the past few seasons. There's plenty of cheap, proven engines out there. A Ford or Chevy pushrod V8 would probably be the cheapest and best alternative. Finding $2 million in funding is a different matter altogether. |
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18 Dec 2003, 18:31 (Ref:815428)
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
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I knew that Pescarolo got money from Peugeot, but didn't know how much...
So PlayStation isn't a big player in their sponsor funding???? That's a shame....I'm sure that Peugeot's money spends just fine... But their lack of commitment into the engine program has to be frustrating for that team... They have a chassis (particularly the new aero package) that I feel is even better than the factory Courage offering.... But those Pug turbos just don't give them the push to get it done... BTW...in the "LMP1 Program on a Shoestring" thread, we discussed different power options as well...from my net surfing for power vs. cost, Sprint Car engines adapted (fuel-wise, displacement - via a shortened stroke and heads -- as well as for restrictors) from the Chevy, Ford or Mopar derived packages seemed to be the cheapest in the Detroit-based pushrod variety....and they varied from $25,000 to $40,000 each.... I have done a lot of looking over the past 10 days for what is out there for sale (chassis, engines, and equipment) and the good deals out there would astound you.... |
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Finally... One American Open Wheel Series!
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18 Dec 2003, 19:23 (Ref:815462)
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Veteran
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Well guys T/A motors aint cheap, the new AJ-8 being 55k and about 4 races between rebuilds (each T/A race 100miles) so one race would do you.
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19 Dec 2003, 06:16 (Ref:815784)
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Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
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The Peugeot solution seems definitely out : Peugeot announced its 2004 programm, and Pescarolo Team is not on it.
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19 Dec 2003, 13:43 (Ref:816087)
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Veteran
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On the "LMES Updates" thread, Graham Goodwin alluded to an announcement for an "existing engine" adding a top LMP1 program to its customer list....
Fab asked about "Peugeot" and Graham said "warm" Fab asked about "JPX" and Graham did not respond..... The silence was deafening.....at least in my ears.... QUESTIONS: 1. What exact configuration is the JPX engine (cylinders and displacement, current horsepower & torque, etc.) that is in the Courage C65??? And what manufacturer (if any) is the original block, etc., derived from??? 1a. Does JPX build other race engines besides the one for the C65??? If YES, what other types of power do they build and what classes of racing use them??? 2. Does the C65's engine have the capability of being turbocharged??? If so, it obviously would fall within the displacement and cylinder regs for a Turbo engine in the LMP1 class.... 3. Is there another subsidiary of Peugeot or a related manufacturer that has an engine that might suit Pescarolo's needs???? Or does this subsidiary have any links or partnerships with JPX in other forms of racing? 4. Could JPX be developing something else (besides the LMP2 engine) with a different block (something Renault based?) for the LMP1 class, and Pescarolo has worked a deal to be their flagship team to run it and test it???? 5. Does JPX have any relationships with Renault, or any Renault-related subsitiaries??? 6. Do either Peugeot or Renault have any working agreements or partnerships of any kind with Japanese auot manufacturers??? I think the Team Graham alluded to is Pescarolo...no secret that Henri is looking for a new engine program, and from Fab's post, Peugeot is not in the equation....at least as Peugeot....maybe a subsidiary??? Your Thoughts??? TO MODERATORS: Is this the Subjecct of a New Thread???? I don't want this "item" that Graham hinted about to get lost in the mix of this thread or the "LMES Updates" one (it is on page 6 of that thread)... And I have no doubt that others would be interested in knowing that we can at least expect a piece of news about "an exisiting engine with a new customer that is a top LMP1 team" Handle as you see fit... Thanks! |
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Finally... One American Open Wheel Series!
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19 Dec 2003, 14:22 (Ref:816128)
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Rookie
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 7
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I think JPX is now part of Mecachrome, like Mader, and according to Le Mans Racing Mecachrome aims at develloping products such as engines or gearboxes.
They have experience as they develloped and run the Renault F1 engine when Renault retired. EDIT: link to their website: http://www.groupe-mecachrome.com Last edited by Zemok; 19 Dec 2003 at 14:25. |
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19 Dec 2003, 14:30 (Ref:816135)
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Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
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Quote:
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 Don't worry, I won't let this disparear !
Last edited by Fab; 19 Dec 2003 at 14:31. |
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19 Dec 2003, 15:06 (Ref:816172)
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Veteran
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To FAB:
Read Zemok's post right above yours.... JPX apparently does have a connection with Renault via the development of the F-1 engines.... and the Nissan/Renault/JPX connection is also interesting...there are a number of Nissan engine blocks that could have an application here...both 6 cylinder and 8 cylinder...most of which are in their Infiniti line of luxury sedans... They even have a 5.7 L V-8 in the newest pick-up truck they are selling in the USA... I don't see a 4 cylinder JPX engine being pumped with a Turbo to run LMP1.... What does Citroen build??? Any 6 or 8 cylinder powerplants.... Do they run WRC???? To take this a little bit full circle: Nissan built a 4.0L V-8 (later downsized to 3.5 L per IRL rules) badged as an Infiniti engine that is very similar to the Aurora V-8 that I started this thread with.... At first (Late 1990s), it was a little down in power....then Tom Walkinshaw and Eddie Cheever took on the development of it with Nissan back around 1999 or 2000....the results improved dramatically... They now run a de-tuned Nissan engine as the one and only powerplant in the feeder series for the IRL...the Infiniti Pro Series....and Cheever still handles the distribution of these engines... In it's last season of the Indy Racing League itself, the engine actually had more power than it's GM competitor, Chevy, and the engine sat in two of the three front row starters at the Indy 500 in either 2001 or 2002 (can't remember which year off-hand)and was on the Pole.... The downside was that the added horses in the 2001 and 2002 versions made that engine a little less reliable.... IMPORTANT NOTE: Even the one that was a little down on power compared the the Aurora could really be tuned and tweaked in the same way as a sportscar engine, and would be plenty of power..... I recall seeing a couple of these for sale on the internet, too, but I can't remember prices, because I was doing the focus on the Aurora I'll dig a little more and let you all know what I find.... |
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Finally... One American Open Wheel Series!
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19 Dec 2003, 15:49 (Ref:816189)
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Veteran
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To Graham Goodwin:
Are we getting Warmer????
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Finally... One American Open Wheel Series!
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