2011 Star Mazda / F2000 / Skip Barber season

[NaBUru38]

2011 USF2000 Winterfest schedule

January 3 - Sebring
January 4 - Sebring
January 12 - Homestead
January 13 - Homestead (doubleheader)

2011 USF2000 National Championship schedule:

March 17-19 - Sebring (ALMS)
March 26-27 - St. Pete (IndyCar)
May 28-29 - Indianapolis (IndyCar)
June 18-19 - Milwaukee (IndyCar)
July 30-31 - Autobahn (Mazda)
August 5-7 - Mid-Ohio (IndyCar / ALMS)
August 19-21 - Road America (ALMS)
September 4 - Baltimore (IndyCar / ALMS)

All non-ovals are doubleheaders. In comparison with 2010, St. Pete, Indianapolis, Autobahn and Road America are kept; Mid-Ohio was added; Iowa was replaced for Milwaukee (that's good, both would have been even better); New Jersey was replaced by Baltimore (NJMP owners won't be happy); and Road Atlanta was replaced by Sebring.

[JagtechOhio]

I read a tweet today on Auto 123 which said that the Star Mazda series was not expected to be part of the "Road to Indy" program. True or false, no idea.

[gomick]

Probably true - its a manufacturer thing (Mazda v Honda) i think...

[marcostraz]

I don't want to make a mistake, but I think that Indianapolis race will be run at O'Reilly Raceway Park...is it true?

[JagtechOhio]

Gomick, we think alike. Don't know if it is rumor or fact, though.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by marcostraz

I don't want to make a mistake, but I think that Indianapolis race will be run at O'Reilly Raceway Park...is it true?

Yes indeed.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

I read a tweet today on Auto 123 which said that the Star Mazda series was not expected to be part of the "Road to Indy" program. True or false, no idea.

Originally Posted by gomick

Probably true - its a manufacturer thing (Mazda v Honda) i think...

So the only legitimate rung on the ladder is getting killed off. Brilliant. Somebody in Indy needs to nut up. Letting Honda dictate the junior series is beyond ludicrous, unless they plan on replacing it with Formula Master cars, and selling the chassis and parts off the same as if it were Star Mazda. But something tells me they're just happy letting it die off.




****ing ridiculous.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

So the only legitimate rung on the ladder is getting killed off. Brilliant. Somebody in Indy needs to nut up. Letting Honda dictate the junior series is beyond ludicrous, unless they plan on replacing it with Formula Master cars, and selling the chassis and parts off the same as if it were Star Mazda. But something tells me they're just happy letting it die off.

****ing ridiculous.

Well star mazda kinda fell into the breach due to atlantics going away but it's never really been well defined what it is or where it is going. Initially it started out as a reliable spec series for those amateurs that wanted an upgrade over formula ford without paying the costs of say racing an atlantic. Then it grew and partnered with the ALMS. Then it's ended up adrift supposedly as a ladder series for open wheel.

So I really don't know what purpose it serves out there. Certainly with indycar stagnating and dying off, there isn't really much need for these ladder series. Quite a few talented drivers have come through star mazda among other feeder series and most are lost out there in the cosmos, with indycar seats taken up by an elder woman backed by a dictator, comic book cover models, unknown euro pay drivers that raced in some obscure off shoot euro formula series and various other hangers on and sundry. No room for any talent. Price is written on the wall, you pay to play.

[JagtechOhio]

"Quite a few talented drivers have come through star mazda among other feeder series..." That's rich, particularly when followed by:

"... unknown euro pay drivers that raced in some obscure off shoot euro formula series..."

So I guess if you moved back to Paris, everybody would be watching Conor Daly testing a GP3 car and calling him a racer from some obscure off shoot American formula series?

Relatively speaking, every open wheel series that isn't F1 or Indycar is an obscure offshoot. Every one of them produces talented drivers, regardless of who pays for the seat or where they come from.

The Star Mazda deal, I wouldn't be getting too worked up over it yet. It could just be a rumor. If Bernard is listening to Robin Miller and instead wants to divert funding to promote USAC drivers, I will be asking claus to loan me a few asterisks.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Well star mazda kinda fell into the breach due to atlantics going away but it's never really been well defined what it is or where it is going. Initially it started out as a reliable spec series for those amateurs that wanted an upgrade over formula ford without paying the costs of say racing an atlantic. Then it grew and partnered with the ALMS. Then it's ended up adrift supposedly as a ladder series for open wheel.

So I really don't know what purpose it serves out there. Certainly with indycar stagnating and dying off, there isn't really much need for these ladder series. Quite a few talented drivers have come through star mazda among other feeder series and most are lost out there in the cosmos, with indycar seats taken up by an elder woman backed by a dictator, comic book cover models, unknown euro pay drivers that raced in some obscure off shoot euro formula series and various other hangers on and sundry. No room for any talent. Price is written on the wall, you pay to play.

At the end of the day it's not about the Road to Indy. All things considered I could give a damn about a Road to Indy, but we need a strong ladder system to create better drivers overall, no matter where they end up, the strongest junior category in the last twenty years has already been killed off, now they want to kill off the second strongest? It's not like the European ladder which needs clarification by subtraction. The American ladder desperately needs an overhaul, a complete change in structure, and I was willing to wait on the series to stabilize, and then get on with it, but Star Mazda is the only legitimate rung on the calendar. It makes absolutely no sense to me to get rid of it, manufacturer clash or not. They should be using Star Mazda as a base to build around.

[HJJ]

Originally Posted by gomick

Probably true - its a manufacturer thing (Mazda v Honda) i think...

That and a sanctioning body thing; IMSA vs. ICS.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

"Quite a few talented drivers have come through star mazda among other feeder series..." That's rich, particularly when followed by:

"... unknown euro pay drivers that raced in some obscure off shoot euro formula series..."

So I guess if you moved back to Paris, everybody would be watching Conor Daly testing a GP3 car and calling him a racer from some obscure off shoot American formula series?

Relatively speaking, every open wheel series that isn't F1 or Indycar is an obscure offshoot. Every one of them produces talented drivers, regardless of who pays for the seat or where they come from.

The Star Mazda deal, I wouldn't be getting too worked up over it yet. It could just be a rumor. If Bernard is listening to Robin Miller and instead wants to divert funding to promote USAC drivers, I will be asking claus to loan me a few asterisks.

Many talented American drivers have come through Star Mazda and other ladder series in recent years only to hit a glass ceiling at indycar. The proof is in the pudding.

Conor Daly is just another example of a driver looking at other options, especially in Europe because it is pretty pointless to continue on the "road to indy". As Derek Daly said they visited with just about every indycar team and the answer back was "where's the check?" or just plain indifference. 15 years ago good drivers were hired on merit, not any more.

The euro ladder series has been disrupted in recent years. Out there now besides GP2 and F3, you have WSR by Renault, Auto GP, Formula 2, the recently defunct Formula Master, GP3, etc.

I follow all these series and have never heard of some of the drivers turning up in indycar mostly because they finish down the order over in Euro land. Stars? More like they have a check they can bring.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

At the end of the day it's not about the Road to Indy. All things considered I could give a damn about a Road to Indy, but we need a strong ladder system to create better drivers overall, no matter where they end up, the strongest junior category in the last twenty years has already been killed off, now they want to kill off the second strongest? It's not like the European ladder which needs clarification by subtraction. The American ladder desperately needs an overhaul, a complete change in structure, and I was willing to wait on the series to stabilize, and then get on with it, but Star Mazda is the only legitimate rung on the calendar. It makes absolutely no sense to me to get rid of it, manufacturer clash or not. They should be using Star Mazda as a base to build around.

It all comes down to money and the point of it all. indycar is basically dying and without a strong professional series the ladder system is useless when successful drivers have to turn to nascar, alms or europe to make use of their experience.

Lets say you are Mr. Rich Dad and you want junior to be an indycar driver. So you pay $400,000 for a few years in Formula Ford, $700,000 for Star Mazda and then $1.5 million for 2 years in indy lights. Add in some other expenses and you are in for $3 million going up the ladder. Now it's time to go race indycar but instead of being hired on merit you are asked for a $5 million dollar check.

So okay let's go find the sponsorship. Hmmm... well because almost nobody watches indycar anymore the media value of sponsorship of a whole car is about a million bucks. Those numbers don't add up so no sponsorship, no drive, no career in indycar.

Don't believe me? Look at the current indycar teams, some of which are dying and where their sponsors come from and who has real sponsorship of $$$ value paying full rate.

What does make sense is to take that $3 million and start on the nascar ladder. At least then talent gets noticed, sponsorship can be found, prize money exists and so on.

I've been to some Star Mazda testing and I can only think of unless you just like spending wads of money on junior formula cars, it's really a pointless endeavor. It's preparing you for what? a career in the ALMS, apparently.

[JagtechOhio]

Gutierrez moves from GP3 to a test driver contract in F1.
Wickens from GP3 is testing a Renault 3.5
Baguette won that series, and proved to be a competent IndyCar driver this year.
So Daly is testing GP3.
What's broken?

The record you play about IndyCar.

Big news flash, it sucks and doesn't show signs (to me) that things are improving.

If IndyCar is going to continue running Lights as a support series, they need to put a gold ring on that rung of the ladder. If guys moving up head somewhere else, good for them.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Gutierrez moves from GP3 to a test driver contract in F1.
Wickens from GP3 is testing a Renault 3.5
Baguette won that series, and proved to be a competent IndyCar driver this year.
So Daly is testing GP3.
What's broken?

The record you play about IndyCar.

Big news flash, it sucks and doesn't show signs (to me) that things are improving.

If IndyCar is going to continue running Lights as a support series, they need to put a gold ring on that rung of the ladder. If guys moving up head somewhere else, good for them.

I don't really understand your logic. What's broken? Obviously the whole system, my critical analysis is not disproven, otherwise Indycar and it's ladder series would be booming.

A Road to Indy that sends drivers fleeing to Europe. Yeah that works.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Certainly with indycar stagnating and dying off, there isn't really much need for these ladder series.

Proper circuit drivers don't grow in trees, they grow in lower formulae. And I'm not just talking about F1 and IndyCar hopefuls. If you check the world's top sports car and touring car drivers from the last 15 years, you will see that most drove open-wheelers in their teens. If IndyCar wants to get healthy again, they need a proper ladder. That said, Mazda's formula ladder also brings drivers to ALMS and Grand-Am.

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

The American ladder desperately needs an overhaul, a complete change in structure

The steps are well placed, what is needed is money, drivers and fans.

[JagtechOhio]

Gee Star, that kinda undermines your whole crappy view of IndyCar racing.

Your tally is that IndyCar is broken, the U.S. ladder series is broken, and the European ladder series is broken.

I guess we know what the rest of your record sounds like.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Proper circuit drivers don't grow in trees, they grow in lower formulae. And I'm not just talking about F1 and IndyCar hopefuls. If you check the world's top sports car and touring car drivers from the last 15 years, you will see that most drove open-wheelers in their teens. If IndyCar wants to get healthy again, they need a proper ladder. That said, Mazda's formula ladder also brings drivers to ALMS and Grand-Am.


The steps are well placed, what is needed is money, drivers and fans.

How so? Indy Lights are a joke, and F2000 is still a club series. Skippys could take their place and it probably wouldn't mean much.

[JagtechOhio]

Claus, Lights needs a lot of help or turning out. Let's ignore the darkness for a moment...

What is a good intermediate step between F2000 and Lights? Or is one even necessary?

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Claus, Lights needs a lot of help or turning out. Let's ignore the darkness for a moment...

What is a good intermediate step between F2000 and Lights? Or is one even necessary?

There isn't a step necessary between F2000 and FIL, because Indy Lights the way it is shouldn't be the last step on the ladder before IndyCar. Of course, F2000 probably shouldn't be on the ladder. Star Mazda should be below FIL, with the Skippys as the first step out of karting.

[Rob29]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

There isn't a step necessary between F2000 and FIL, because Indy Lights the way it is shouldn't be the last step on the ladder before IndyCar. Of course, F2000 probably shouldn't be on the ladder. Star Mazda should be below FIL, with the Skippys as the first step out of karting.

What the heck is a skippy?

[NaBUru38]

Skip Barber. Each national champion gets a USF2000 seat the next season.

Skip Barber to Star Mazda is too big a step, moreso if drivers are encouraged to stay just one year in each.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Rob29

What the heck is a skippy?

It is common terminology in the business to refer to Skip Barber school as skippy or a variation there of.

It's also common to call drivers or instructors that are worshipers of the regimented skip barber system of driving, skippy's.

Skip Barber is one of the few real racing schools left in the world(although much of their business is corporate and entertainment these days) and they certainly do teach a lot of valued skills and you can learn a hell of a lot. Some of it though is out of date for 2010. Just my opinion, but still not a bad place to learn.

Skip Barber IRC got out of direct involvement with the ownership of the school about 10 years ago and makes plenty leasing buildings and the track back to the school.

[Morris Dancer]

This 'lively exchange of views' is great, but shouldn't it be here?

[JagtechOhio]

Depends on your perspective, I suppose. To me, this is not so much about specific developments in feeder series competition as it is the potential effect on the IndyCar Series.

Financial support and sanctioning is expected to come from IndyCar, so potential allocation of resources is relevant. I have been a proponent of establishing a top prize for Indy Lights, so that progression up the ladder has a more direct cause and effect.

If J.R. Hildebrand won $500K in Izod money last year, he would have been able to fund a program similar to what Davey Hamilton ran in 2010. Or dedicate the money to another effort of his choosing.

That makes Lights a destination series in itself, and might attract more entries if the step up to IndyCar was recognized as a direct one.

With that "gold ring" established, participation on lower rungs makes more sense, doesn't it? If a title championship in an IndyCar sanctioned feeder series gets you a check to seed a Lights program, teams and drivers might see it as an attainable goal.

As it stands now, success in Lights gets you some attention and the opportunity to troll around for sponsorship. Often that leads to a tough road, and I would point to Hildebrand, Alex Lloyd and Jay Howard as examples. Saavedra had better luck.

Now Vernay, Pippa and Hinch are trolling. Running another year in Lights would be a waste or resources.

Winning the Lights championship, or staying in it long enough to do so (or alternatively attracting enough sponsorship) should be worth something. Right now, it doesn't even look like smart money to race there.