Wearing an open face helmet in an open racecar

[FastDB2s]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Although TBQH I dont think you should wear an O/F in an open car but thats a discussion for another thread.

Why don't you think its a good idea to use an open face helmet in an open 2 seat racecar.

[midgetman]

I'm not a fan - through first hand experience and testimony

1. there are other people here who have had close encounters of the debris kind, be it rubber or stones, hitting them on the visor or the chin bar of a full face helmet. This was in normal racing and quite separate from an accident of any kind. For myself, I was out cycling recently and I hit a bee which stung me. I was doing about 40nph and it blooming' hurt, imagine if I had been doing 80mph?

2. My own experience a few years back when someone went into a gravel trap in front of me, threw up atones and broke the windscreen. Now I know I was in a closed car, but the impact point was in line with my chin which was quite sobering. It was a ruddy great stone and would really have hurt, it was a big impact. If it had hit the visor, that's bad enough but that is several inches away from my eye. I'm not sure how I'd react to it hitting a goggle that is basically ON my eye

3. There are many films on YouTube of how the driver's head moves forwards in a crash as the belts stretch and neck extends. It is not unknown for a driver's face to hit the steering wheel. The best video is one promoting the HANS device, which from that POV makes a great deal of sense

4. I don't really like open faced helmets in a closed car either. In an accident there can be an awful amount of debris flying around which could cut or damage your face. This was first bought to my attention many years ago by "Doc" Enderby (remember him?) who crashed his Karmann Ghia special saloon and his subsequent article about motor sport safety had a formative effect on me

Disclaimer
These are my personal views and prejudices, and not those of racewear.co.uk. Open faced helmets are perfectly legal and can be used in MSA and international racing at our level, it's just that I wouldn't.

Does that help?

Max

[GORDON STREETER]

I too had a bumblebee hit me in the face whist riding my motorbike at 90mph with an open face helmet many moons ago that caused a massive bruise.
I also had a pheasant go through my windscreen of my road car ( old shatter type) that broke the rear view mirror off and hit me in the face, so anything can happen.
Look what happened to Massa when he got hit by a spring not so long ago and no doubt he was wearing the best full face at the time !

[Woolley]

I've cleared up the results of a formula car who had a bee hit him while wearing a full face helmet but with the visor open a little to help with misting. I've also seen the results of chin/steering wheel interface. Frankly, after 25 years marshalling, if I started driving I wouldn't consider an open helmet at all, never mind in an open car with all manner of things that can hit you. You're spending a large chunk of money to protect your head, why compromise when you could protect the rest of your face as well?

[Lola]

I was once hit in the face by a spanner exiting the car in front on the way out of Graham Hill Bend at Brands hatch. Smashed the pivot kit off. Had to drive the rest of the race one handed as i was having to hold what was left of the helmet visor in place along the straights.
Although open face helmets look good after this only a full face will do.

[MagnetON]

People think they would be "safe" in a saloon. Had an incident where a Lotus Elan rolled and turned itself into a ball of tinfoil. As the "first on scene" marshal I can tell you you DO NOT want to be the one that has to look in an open face helmet that's come flying out an incident on its own.

[GORDON STREETER]

The only time that I wore goggles was with a full face helmet when I was motocrossing, as you can have layers of tear offs on them and that is standard wear now for that sport.
I would have thought it was only a matter of time that open face helmets were outlawed in motorsport IMHO

[terence]

Who's to say whether or not Massa would have escaped such a nasty injury IF he had been wearing an open face?Had the FF been a little narrower,he may not have been hit by that spring.

[Al Weyman]

I wish I was wearing an openface when I puked up my breakfast in my fullface version at Rockingham! Seriously though full face for me everytime.

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I wish I was wearing an openface when I puked up my breakfast in my fullface version at Rockingham!

OVERSHARE!

[dtype38]

Well, just for the sake of making this a slightly less one sided crusade against open face helmets....

When I first started racing open cars I used a Arai GP Jet open face with goggles and a standard balaclava. I loved it. The feeling of speed, the wind noise, the smells are all more exciting, more involving that being sealed away in the sterile environment of a closed face helmet. It's exactly like the difference between driving an open car or a closed car. If you were that worried about safety and something hitting you, then why would you ever drive an open car in the first place? And if you're of the opinion that open face helmets aren't safe, then I can't see how you could justify open cars either.

And yes I have had stuff hit me in the face, and it hurts. So what, running into a barrier hurts more, but we wouldn't stop racing just because it might happen. I don't think you should criticise unless you've tried it. I have and know that if the car in front runs over some gravel spilled from a trap, and you're in an open car with an open helmet.... well you hunker down a bit and dip your peak a bit. It isn't rocket science.

If you want to go on a safety witch hunt, then try starting with making the historic racers out there fit full roll cages and 6-point harnesses. After all, it was the number of people killed driving in those things that lead to all the safety rules we have now.

Rant over...

Sorry.

[GORDON STREETER]

I'm not criticising I'm just pointing out what can and what has happened in my case.
We have all done silly things including riding motorbikes without a helmet before they were made compulsory and at the time didn't even think about it !
It's a free world (or was) and if people want to do anything lawful then I wouldn't stand in their way

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

It's a free world (or was) and if people want to do anything lawful then I wouldn't stand in their way

But sadly it gets a bit more complicated when people exercise their lawful right to campaign against your lawful activity.

[midgetman]

Oh I agree, this is my personal view and my personal view only. Open face helmets are fully legal and I will defend your right to wear them. I'm just outlining the reasons I won't.

I wear an open face helmet in a saloon car when I'm teaching, and it just feels so wrong. I've only ever worn f/f otherwise from when I was 16 and riding my Fizzie.

re your points about stones etc, my view is that it's a likely and preventable injury and I can take reasonable steps to stop it happening without inconveniencing me or my wallet. Cost/benefit - cost is comparatively low, probability of it protecting me is high therefore worth the expenditure

[JohnD]

Just to be more contraversial, what do people think of wearing a scarf over your face, under your open face helmet?
A la Graham Hill: http://www.500race.org/Men/Hill.htm
Who cares if it does provide protection against bees, small stones etc?
The look is just so 'chocks away, tally ho' !

Plus balaclava, or instead of?

John

[dtype38]

I'd go for it It doesn't put anyone else at risk does it?

As it happens, my race car has always been road legal, taxed and insured, so I have on occasion done road trips in it. For short trips I use a leather flying helmet, split pane goggles and a scarf wrapped so that one end flutters in the wind. Not very safe, but it's my own choice. It's all very and feels great.

For more serious distances I wear ear plugs, two beanie hats, a city cycling filter mask and pair of ski goggles, plus the obligatory scarf. It still feels way more 'exposed' and exciting than even an open face helmet, never mind a closed one.

Ok, I admit I always take a full face helmet with me, but that's only in case it ****es down!


More seriously though, my concern is that when people start discussing things like this it's very hard to argue against people being 'more safe'. Obviously everyone wants everyone else to be as safe as possible. Few would want to be seen suggesting that people should put themselves at more risk than they have to, particularly if it doesn't cost much to eliminate the risk. So pretty soon a weight of opinion forms that allowing a certain 'risk' to be taken is a bad idea, with few dissenting voices. So then it sounds like a majority are for eliminating that risk and pretty soon the rule makers include it as a 'recommendation' for best safety. And as we all know, one year's 'recommendation' has a habit of becoming next year's 'requirement' in our sport.

There's no easy answer. I lived through the Helmet Law controversy for motorbikes and had a lot of sympathy for the small number of gnarled old chopper and 'brit bike' riders who simply wanted it to be a personal choice. And yet it was obvious how many kids on fs1e's and ap50's lives were being saved by not giving them the choice. Perhaps for racing I'd agree that if you have a cross on the back of your car, you have to wear a full face helmet. After that you can choose. That would mean it was a genuine decision to go open face. An opt in, as it were, that few would even bother to try.

[BertMk2]

I have an open face helmet - but then I sit on the 'wrong' side of the car and don't have a steering wheel in front of me. I also find it easier to talk to marshals at time controls with the open face helmet. The downside as people have already mentioned is getting insects in the face - our roof vent scoops them up nicely and fires them into the car. At least since putting a finer mesh over the vent they come into the car in smaller pieces

[midgetman]

So '38, you're hinting we shouldn't discuss it in case you get an "Law of Unintended Consequences" result that you don't agree with? That's even more anti-libertarian than mandating a full-face helmet

I'd never want o/f helmets banned in the same way I'd never want HANS mandatory - the chance to make my own grown up decision based on my own personal risk assessment.

Talking of FS1Es, another nail in the o/f coffin was when my mate came off his and scraped his visor along the road. Wrecked the front of his helmet, but at least his face was no more ugly than before he came off!

On the other side of the argument, a customer came in here recently and ordered an o/f because he'd been told he wouldn't have sufficient peripheral vision in his closed cockpit car to see the cars lapping him otherwise.

We're getting the same discussion about compulsion in cycling at the moment. I wouldn't dream of riding my racer without a helmet, but wouldn't wear it on my MTB going round the village. Risk assessment again.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by JohnD

Just to be more contraversial, what do people think of wearing a scarf over your face, under your open face helmet?

The Blue Book says: "Never wear a scarf, tie or other loose clothing
which could come loose and possibly cause an
accident." Would a gentleman race without a tie? How times change!

Originally Posted by midgetman

I'd never want o/f helmets banned in the same way I'd never want HANS mandatory - the chance to make my own grown up decision based on my own personal risk assessment.

Interesting point (well, I think so!) here: Are open face helmets HANS compatible? I can't really see why not, just wouldn't look right to me.

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Interesting point (well, I think so!) here: Are open face helmets HANS compatible? I can't really see why not, just wouldn't look right to me.

Yes they are, and because the HANS device should reduce the face/steering wheel interface likelihood they actually work well together. We do shift quite a few of them actually, and they're not that expensive compared to a helmet without posts.

[dtype38]

Lot more important to have a tight fitting o/f helmet with a HANS device I would have thought. Wouldn't want your head popping out the front and only being restrained by the neck strap!!!

Take your point MM about free speech... just not particularly a believer myself. Whoever said 'the pen is mightier than the sword' (or keyboard these days) knew that words can have more impact than sharp implements. So all the more important to take care about how you wield them..... and take responsibility for the possible outcome if you do!

[FastDB2s]

Whilst we are talking about HANS, how much time does it add to a driver change, can the change still be done in 30 / 35seconds.

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

The Blue Book says: "Never wear a scarf, tie or other loose clothing
which could come loose and possibly cause an
accident." Would a gentleman race without a tie? How times change!:.

clearly a properly fastened tie pin would remove the dilemma. But ties are for arrivistes, a true gentleman would drive in a Nomex cravat, securely fastened inside the overalls.

Don't forget I have a vested interest. A multi-national rapacious oppressor of the masses such as me makes far more profit on an f/f than an o/f. Therefore I use the spurious reason of enhanced safety to con yet more money out of you horny-handed sons of toil and impose another unfair tax on your sporting habits.

Or so my customers have you believe!

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by FastDB2s

Whilst we are talking about HANS, how much time does it add to a driver change, can the change still be done in 30 / 35seconds.

From what I've heard it doesn't cause any problems as long as there's someone there to help you.

Remember if you have any of those fancy "HANS compatible" seat belts and your co-driver doesn't wear a HANS, you need a second top strap set for him/her. Best stick to normal belts.

[Lola]

Originally Posted by midgetman

clearly a properly fastened tie pin would remove the dilemma. But ties are for arrivistes, a true gentleman would drive in a Nomex cravat, securely fastened inside the overalls.

Don't forget I have a vested interest. A multi-national rapacious oppressor of the masses such as me makes far more profit on an f/f than an o/f. Therefore I use the spurious reason of enhanced safety to con yet more money out of you horny-handed sons of toil and impose another unfair tax on your sporting habits.

Or so my customers have you believe!