Ignoring BLACK flags

[Gnomex]

I'd like to raise this as a topic for discussion. I see the issue as being very different to ignoring yellow flags for the following reasons:-

1 Black flags are shown on the start/finish line (i.e. on a straight) and should therefore be readily visible
2 Black flags are accompanied by a number board displaying the number of the relevant car

Recently (and most certainly not for the first time) I had occasion to show first the black/orange flag to a driver. After he had apparently taken no notice of that for a couple of laps, I then was instructed by the clerks to show him the black flag which was also ignored for several laps. I think it was only the mechanical defect (that had instigated the showing of the black/orange) becoming blindingly obvious to the driver that made him stop (even then, he just pulled off and didn't go back into the pits...).

A suggestion - why not mandate in the Blue book a rule requiring cars to display their racing number internally say on the steering wheel or dash - no more excuses about not knowing if the black flag was for them or not. It would be a great help to novices!

Any drivers also care to comment?

[The Fat Clerk]

If a driver doesn't come in after been shown the black flag with the orange circle + his number 3 times, I always ask for him to be shown the black, the end result is always the same.
A visit to me + cheque book & licence.

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by Gnomex

A suggestion - why not mandate in the Blue book a rule requiring cars to display their racing number internally say on the steering wheel or dash - no more excuses about not knowing if the black flag was for them or not. It would be a great help to novices!

Would that be posted next to a map of the circuit?

[Sheila M]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

If a driver doesn't come in after been shown the black flag with the orange circle + his number 3 times, I always ask for him to be shown the black, the end result is always the same.
A visit to me + cheque book & licence.

Quite right too!

I had to invite a driver up to see Viv the other week after he'd failed to come into the pits on the next lap after being shown the black and orange (a Blue Book reg - check on the flags page anyone who's interested!)

Actually, he failed to come into the pits on the three occasions he was shown the black and orange and the subsequent FOUR times he passed the black flag. When he finally arrived in the pits at the end of the race, the startline marshals grabbed him and informed him he was wanted upstairs. He carried on driving down the pit lane until he reached me and the broomstick (well yellow flag really). Anyway, he drove UNDER the yellow flag and out in the Scrut bay, with me trotting along behind him.

He finally stopped his car and I then told him of his invitation for a visit upstairs. He looked a bit blank, bless him, and asked me if he'd done something wrong I asked him to tell me what the black and orange flag meant. His reply - "Erm - its a driver warning". "Try again" I urged. "Erm oh er erm er er oooh! mechanical?" Bearing in mind that the amount of bodywork that was hanging off his vehicle could be heard scraping the ground as he went round Redgate from the middle of the pit lane ...

Perhaps, gnomex, some drivers should be encouraged to look at the pretty pictures of flags in the Blue Book from time to time

[Joyce George]

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

Would that be posted next to a map of the circuit?

As it happens deadsquirrel, that did happen at Rockingham a couple of years ago. A Caterham fell off at post 16. On going to investigate, he had a map of the circuit sellotaped to his dash! His excuse was one bit of the circuit looked like every other bit!

[carsreunited]

I'm a novice driver and was shown the black and orange during practice at Brands Hatch a few weeks ago (over filled my fuel tank and fuel was coming out of the vent pipe in corners).

I first noticed that the red and yellow flag was being displayed at druids so I'm looking for spill/debris on the track, completed the lap and no black and orange at the end of pit lane. I then see the red and yellow at druids again with the Marshall pointing at me. I now start to think that something isn't right, come by the pit lane exit and sure enough the black and orange with number 86 is displayed. This is the first lap it has been displayed.

I then come into the pits at Graham Hill Bend rather than the pit lane entry proper to get off at the earliest opportunity. I get out and go to speak to the Marshall at the end of pit lane who tells me that fuel seems to be coming out of the car and that I was going to get black flagged had I not come in when I did. In all, I probably did 2 and half laps from the first red and yellow being shown which was non-specific against my car!

Anyway, my point is that the black and Orange was slow to appear but to the Marshalls on the posts, it looked like I had been staying out on the track ignorantly.

Scott

[Grahame West]

Interesting to hear a driver's view point. As a flaggie often wonder what the visibility of flags are from the drivers' view point. I'm sure most marshals at the big meetings see the course car doing out doing flaps with various persons in, especially for passenger rides. Wouldn't it be a good idea to let the flag marshals have a fast lap so they can get the drivers' viewpoint of flag posts?

[Bryan Degerlund]

Scott,

As Chief Startline marshal at Brands Hatch, my team are responsible for displaying the flags from the starter's podium. Although I cannot remember the specifics of your situation, I can assure you the black/orange will always be shown a minimum of three times before changing to the blank flag. If there are mitigating circumstances, such as you being in the middle of a close pack, we may (I repeat MAY) delay the black for a further lap or include the comment on a written report.

However, the priority is to get you off the circuit, get the problem fixed, and get you back out as soon as possible, once the Scruts are satisfied. We have had times when the driver concerned had looked directly at us, but has continued around, not being aware of the flag meaning.

Finally there is the classic example of the driver whose excuse was "I didn't see the flag until the third time you showed it me!"

Bryan

[whatapalaver]

With regard to the comment above about a map of the track etc I understand that a European Clio was found to have both a map of Donington and picture of the flags stuck to the dash a few years ago in a practice session. This information was passed on to the Clerk of the Course who extended an invite to the driver and team manager...

Someone elsealways has the good ideas

[Tim Falce]

As a driver I find one of the hardest places to see a flag is at the start/finish line flag point. Maybe because these flag points are mostly on the right side of the track and partly concealed by the pit wall and also mainly approaching a right hand bend, I.E. Brands, Oulton, Snetterton. At these tracks I would be lining my sight up on the left side of the track for the corner. I don't have any problems seeing other flag posts though....honest.
Gnomex's post seems to be reminiscent of a certain Aston race at Brands last year.

[Sheila M]

Originally Posted by whatapalaver

With regard to the comment above about a map of the track etc I understand that a European Clio was found to have both a map of Donington and picture of the flags stuck to the dash a few years ago in a practice session. This information was passed on to the Clerk of the Course who extended an invite to the driver and team manager...

Someone elsealways has the good ideas

I once saw a car with the map of the circuit taped to the floor - think that might have been the same meeting!

[Bald Spot]

Gnomex, any idea what happened to said single seater driver? When he pulled off, I mentioned to him the clerks may want to see him, he just gave me a blank look and said 'why'!

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Sheila M

I once saw a car with the map of the circuit taped to the floor - think that might have been the same meeting!

I am just hoping my Tom Tom 500 will be of use at the next meeting

[Phoenix1]

In regards to the numbers if you are changing them all the time it can sometimes be something you may forget so actually putting it in the car may be a good idea but that should be the drivers responsibility. Also on top of that even if you are not sure the first lap after 3 you really should of got the idea! I'd think you should at least get a one race ban if you do not come in, in the three laps grace provided. Wheather it be a black and orange or black you are clearly not someone who should be on the track.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by whatapalaver

With regard to the comment above about a map of the track etc I understand that a European Clio was found to have both a map of Donington and picture of the flags stuck to the dash a few years ago in a practice session. This information was passed on to the Clerk of the Course who extended an invite to the driver and team manager...

Frankly that sounds eminently sensible to me. I know I put a circuit map in view when I'm playing PC games. I did worry at one meeting when the team changed the driver's map of Donington for one of Brands for the second session. He went off at McLaens which is the first corner that turns the opposite way. Coincidence?

Back to topic, Champ Cars have a black flag board (That's what is says across the top in day-glo lettering!) onto which you attach velcroed numbers, also day-glo. Even more sensibly, it's displayed ahead of the last corner - at Brands this was on the right at the end of Bottom Straight. Having worked this board at both Rockingham and Brands, I can vouch for it's extreme effectiveness.

Is it really necessary to have separate black flag and black/orange meatball flag? The meaning is much the same (come into the pits) so you just need to make sure that the driver is directed once he's done so.

[Paul Newns]

If a driver is not looking at the pit wall but at the next corner (which I accept he may quite sensibly be doing) why do we have pit boards all along the pit wall?

[PapaJuliet]

Originally Posted by Paul Newns

If a driver is not looking at the pit wall but at the next corner (which I accept he may quite sensibly be doing) why do we have pit boards all along the pit wall?

Gives the rest of the team something to do?

PJ

[goforit500]

It OFTEN difficult to discriminate the Start/Finish flags from the pit boards as they seem to pop out from behind lots of movement along the pit wall...

Snett, Brands & Donny seem to be the most difficult....

Not that I've ever been black flagged - I have managed to miss a chequer on occasion tho :-)

[Gnomex]

Originally Posted by Bald Spot

Gnomex, any idea what happened to said single seater driver? When he pulled off, I mentioned to him the clerks may want to see him, he just gave me a blank look and said 'why'!

I shouldn't say too much - this happened at Lydden the other week so may still be too fresh to mention details.

As regards the use of "dayglo" numbers that was mentioned, I don't think that would be acceptable - certainly until recently the Blue book mandated the use of white numerals on a black background.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Paul Newns

If a driver is not looking at the pit wall but at the next corner (which I accept he may quite sensibly be doing) why do we have pit boards all along the pit wall?

I wouldn't know, maybe it looks good but I wouldn't be able to pick mine out if I had one.

[digger]

Originally Posted by Sheila M

I once saw a car with the map of the circuit taped to the floor - think that might have been the same meeting!

Some of the elder marshals at Thruxton have told me that Mika Hakkinen in F3 had a circuit map and a phrase typed in Finnish in the cockpit of his car.
When one of the pitlane marshals enquired as to what the phrase was it was explained that it said.

"I must try f******G harder"

[Sheila M]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Is it really necessary to have separate black flag and black/orange meatball flag? The meaning is much the same (come into the pits) so you just need to make sure that the driver is directed once he's done so.

Yes it is Woolley! The Meatball flag means that the car has mechanical problems of which the driver may be unaware and which may be fixable, enabling said driver to continue in the practice/race, provided of course he/she takes notice of it in the first place!

The black flag on the other hand is an invitation to see the Clerk of the Course, for whatever he/she may have/have not done during the practice/race. It's basic meaning is - for you, dear driver, the practice/race is over!

[JohnD]

All,
I've been there too, at Oulton a few years ago. Exhaust pipe fell off, but I saw it skitter to the track side and continued. When I finally responded to the Black flag and number, I was told that the Black and orange had been on display for three laps too.

The Clerk kindly gave me only a ticking off, and no fine. I wrote to the MSA afterwards making a number of points:
A/ It's a BLACK flag. Every other one is brightly coloured and easily seen. It looks much smaller than a Yellow one, even whenit is the same size.
B/ It is displayed on the pit wall (see above), against a crowd of people, not out in the open as flags from marshal's posts are.
C/ In this case, Oulton, the S/F straight looks directly into the afternoon sun. Try and see something black against that.
D/ The number displayed with the BF is tiny. The Blue Book regs stipulate LARGE numbers on the cars, presumably so that the timekeeper can see them as they speed by. There is no such stipulation for numbers with the BF, and they are usually less than half the size. If the timekeeper needs BIG numbers, surely the driver needs them too?

The MSA committee kindly acknowledged my letter, but I've seen no changes in the regs.

Let us see a black board, bordered with white or against a light background and not against the light, bigger than a flag, with BIG numbers, and maybe us drivers will not seem the bone headed, blind idiots we really are.

JOhn

[JimW]

Many years ago at Donington Park at a VSCC meeting. Driver shown the black flag. Comes to a screeching halt on the racing line just past the startline and asks "Sorry, did yoiu want me?"

Maximum points for politness and eagerness to please; minimum points for awareness of the blue book and common sense. (It would be unkind to say that that defines a VSCC driver, so I won't. )

More seriously, £50 for the first missed black flag and £100 each thereafter to £1000 when a licence suspension takes place would, I suspect, solve the problem almost overnight.

Regards

Jim

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Sheila M

Yes it is Woolley! The Meatball flag means that the car has mechanical problems of which the driver may be unaware and which may be fixable, enabling said driver to continue in the practice/race, provided of course he/she takes notice of it in the first place!

The black flag on the other hand is an invitation to see the Clerk of the Course, for whatever he/she may have/have not done during the practice/race. It's basic meaning is - for you, dear driver, the practice/race is over!

Sorry, I do realize the difference, but what I meant was, does that difference matter to the driver on the circuit? "We want you in now" is the instruction, we'll worry about why when you get here. If it's a mechanical problem, then it's going to need pointing out to him or his crew, and if it's a butt-kicking he can be hauled out when he arrives. Either way, it's not really important to communicate it to him while he's out there, it's just another flag he's got to remember through the fuzz of panic and adrenaline!

While the blue book gives it's requirements, I know that means the circuits can't go their own way. Nor should they as real confusion could ensue then. It doesn't mean it's the best way, and in my experience, the Champ Car way is very succesful. For those who're interested, here's a cheesy photo of me showing off with the board at Rockingham. At 215mph, it got their attention.