Isn't it strange?

[slicktoast]

There seem to be such petty rules with such severe penalties, yet when serious events occur, no consequenses to those in charge. Minimal cleanup after lap one's and Alonso's crash (tire down, possibly caused by carbon bits all about). Ralf hits the wall (tire down, again possibly caused by carbon bits all about). Field is led through the wreckage (more carbon bits...) when there is an ample pit lane to avoid it. Ralf sits too long. Juan runs over 50 laps pits and THEN is shown the black flag after pit out! So what happens? Not even a slap on the wrist, but the race is awarded a new contract!

[climb]

Very strange indeed, and somewhat irritating, but there you go, in almost every human activity you gonna face problems like this.

[garcon]

It's not the venue's fault, and it's not the promoter's fault. It's the fault of the FIA race stewards and the F1 Race Director, Charlie Whiting. So although your summary of the catalogue of failures is IMO entirely accurate, I'm afraid you can't blame Tony George!

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by slicktoast
There seem to be such petty rules with such severe penalties, yet when serious events occur, no consequenses to those in charge. Minimal cleanup after lap one's and Alonso's crash (tire down, possibly caused by carbon bits all about). Ralf hits the wall (tire down, again possibly caused by carbon bits all about). Field is led through the wreckage (more carbon bits...) when there is an ample pit lane to avoid it. Ralf sits too long. Juan runs over 50 laps pits and THEN is shown the black flag after pit out! So what happens? Not even a slap on the wrist, but the race is awarded a new contract!

You can't really blame the IMS for what happened, but I agree with your overall summary of the events. it's undoubtedly the msot ineptly-officiated F1 race in years. The fact that no one was permenantly injured is probably down to luck more than anything else. The practice of continuing races under the safety car, no matter how much debris is on track, has to end.

[blueflagger]

The venue was awarded the contract, not the officials who make the decisions to use a safety car or take a long time to decide how to penalize drivers. Although the organizers and officials interact, they are rarely the same people.

I have not seen the televised version yet, but I have worked the event as a flagger for five years. I have also worked many GPs and other pro races in various countries before IMS won the gig. From this worker's viewpoint, the USGP at IMS is by far the best-organized and professionally-run F1 race.

Mistakes were made, as happens at every event. But please don't blame IMS for the safety decisions of the F1 officials. I am NOT a fan of Tony George but this track knows how to put on an event.

[Kicking-back]

Agree with most of the above.

I do think, however, at most other Grand Prix venues, marshals would have at least approached Ralf's car to check with him a long time before they did here.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Kicking-back


I do think, however, at most other Grand Prix venues, marshals would have at least approached Ralf's car to check with him a long time before they did here.

I'm surprised that they didn't get there quicker. Watch any US based racing series and the "crash team" are at the incident very quickly. Maybe the FIA should employ the "safety green" team from CART for next years event?

[garcon]

I may be wrong, but as the oval is effectively a closed area with nowhere to run (for cars or marshals! ), the rule may be different, i.e. no marshals can enter a 'live' track. Hopefully someone can confirm.

[blueflagger]

Garcon, you are correct.

Marshals must receive permission from race control before climbing out onto the oval. This is to protect the marshals as a car at speed entering the front straight will reach the marshal before he or she can get back through the hole. We've timed it.

I've been out there. Even out of the line, it is a scary experience.

[jetsetter]

The thing that suprised me most about the lack of response when Ralf hit the wall was the fact that it was Indianapolis where they deal with more big accidents than just about anywhere in the world & i would've expected the marshall's to react quicker when an accident such as that occurred.

[Hungary 89]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
... The practice of continuing races under the safety car, no matter how much debris is on track, has to end.

I agree, Even if you ignor the safety reasons (which I fully agree with) They are always going on about improving the show, yet they are happy to continue a race with 25% of the field out after the first lap. That doesn't make sense to me we are here to watch a motor race after all

[Gt_R]

Especially at Indy.. the straight has zero run offs.. In any case that an accident occur anywhere along that straight, the control should issue an immediate closure of the banked straight starting from the entrance of the pitlane. Any car still running should continue out of that sector (which ends at the pitlane exit) and once cleared, allows marshals to get onto circuit asap safely and the medical team can do the job without the hazards of runnning F1 cars.

An accident at such high speed is rarely small...and while marshals can't be blamed for getting to Ralf late...the control can be blamed for taking such a long time to respond and give approval.

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by Hungary 89
They are always going on about improving the show, yet they are happy to continue a race with 25% of the field out after the first lap.

So we should restart just because a few people go off on lap one?

What nonsense.

Why should they be given another chance?

[Hungary 89]

Well your entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine though being slightly less self opinionated I'll fall short of describing yours as nonsense.

All I was pointing out is that we are running what can be at best be described as a depleted field when everyone is running any way ( the good old days of 26 cars are long gone) if a significant number of cars go out on the first lap as has happened in the past I don't see why the stewards feel the need to always continue under the safety car Surely it is safer to stop the race and coupled with that the race is a lot more interesting with a full field I watch F1 to see the drivers on the track not to listen to them blaming everyone but themselves from the sidelines

I'm not saying the show should be the primary concern but when coupled with the safety issue I think there is a strong argument for being a little more open to the Idea of stopping the race

[Kicking-back]

But if you go off on the first lap, or the twenty first lap, your race is over.

I don't like the idea of people getting another chance.

It's races where a large number of cars retire that give unusual results and point scorers.

[Hungary 89]

But this is another thing why should it be that way we switch on our tv's or go to the tracks to see our hero's RACE if they have a healthy car why should it be over just because they were nudged into a gravel trap, It's always great to see a class driver with the red mist carving through a field to make up lost ground, in such a situation the winner may still be an unusual one but you have also seen a master of his craft battling back against the odds what is really wrong with that?

[ASCII Man]

Originally posted by Kicking-back
But if you go off on the first lap, or the twenty first lap, your race is over.

I don't like the idea of people getting another chance.

It's races where a large number of cars retire that give unusual results and point scorers.

But it's okay for a driver, i won't mention any names *cough*TGF*cough*, who spins and ends up with his rear wheels in the gravel trap to be pushed and get a second chance?

[Adam43]

Totally different and irrelevant. And unfortunatly means it is now a case of 'here we go again'...

Did they have to stop the race to get Michael going? Which is the suggestion in this thread - stop the race because of a crash early in the race eliminates a few cars.

[Hungary 89]

I'm not fan of the certain driver my psycic powers are telling me you mean but in the hyperthetical situation that you may have been talking about I believe it was fair under the rules he was in a dangerous position and the rules say that you may be push started from a dangerous position. However there is a contradiction in the rules in that if you are in a dangerous position then the marshalls have to go to that dangerous position risking there own neck to allow you to continue racing why then shouldn't you be allowed to be push started when you are posing no danger at all?

[Kicking-back]

That has always been the way in F1.

If you're out, you're out.

That happens in racing.

[Hungary 89]

Until the 70's 8 drivers a year dying was what happened in racing until Jackie Stewart pointed out that this was not particularly good for the sport.

I know that this was an extreme example but just because something has always been that way doesn't mean it should continue if there are better alternatives

[Kicking-back]

Totally irrelevant point, really.

We don't want a situation where, in order to push spun off cars back onto the track, the safety car is out regularly.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Hungary 89
I believe it was fair under the rules he was in a dangerous position and the rules say that you may be push started from a dangerous position.

Michael was allowed to be push started because he kept his engine running, a rule which came into effect at the beginning of 2003 (luckily for him!).

Originally posted by Hungary 89
Until the 70's 8 drivers a year dying was what happened in racing until Jackie Stewart pointed out that this was not particularly good for the sport.

The average was 3 a year, although that is, of course, 3 too many!

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by Mr V
Michael was allowed to be push started because he kept his engine running, a rule which came into effect at the beginning of 2003 (luckily for him!).

Not sure if that's exactly true - the same thing happened with Mika Hakkinen in the 1994 British Grand Prix.

As far as I know, it's been the case that if you keep the engine running you'll be pushed from a dangerous place for many years.

[Mr V]

Only saying what Martin Brundle said during the race (i believe he quoted the rule book) because, at the time, he thought that Michael should be excluded from the race. (Until reading the rule book of course)