Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 21 Jun 2004, 13:44 (Ref:1010749)   #1
slicktoast
Veteran
 
slicktoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location:
Axtel,Oh,USA
Posts: 731
slicktoast should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Isn't it strange?

There seem to be such petty rules with such severe penalties, yet when serious events occur, no consequenses to those in charge. Minimal cleanup after lap one's and Alonso's crash (tire down, possibly caused by carbon bits all about). Ralf hits the wall (tire down, again possibly caused by carbon bits all about). Field is led through the wreckage (more carbon bits...) when there is an ample pit lane to avoid it. Ralf sits too long. Juan runs over 50 laps pits and THEN is shown the black flag after pit out! So what happens? Not even a slap on the wrist, but the race is awarded a new contract!
slicktoast is offline  
Quote
Old 21 Jun 2004, 13:54 (Ref:1010761)   #2
climb
Veteran
 
climb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
St Pierre and Miquelon
closer than you thought!
Posts: 4,512
climb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridclimb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Very strange indeed, and somewhat irritating, but there you go, in almost every human activity you gonna face problems like this.
climb is offline  
__________________
You got to learn how to fall, before you learn to fly
P.Simon
Quote
Old 21 Jun 2004, 13:54 (Ref:1010763)   #3
garcon
Veteran
 
garcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Antarctica
Wilmslow, Cheshire
Posts: 8,885
garcon will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famegarcon will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famegarcon will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famegarcon will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famegarcon will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famegarcon will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famegarcon will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famegarcon will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famegarcon will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famegarcon will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
It's not the venue's fault, and it's not the promoter's fault. It's the fault of the FIA race stewards and the F1 Race Director, Charlie Whiting. So although your summary of the catalogue of failures is IMO entirely accurate, I'm afraid you can't blame Tony George!
garcon is offline  
__________________
"Never pick a fight with an ugly person, they've got nothing to lose."
Quote
Old 21 Jun 2004, 14:05 (Ref:1010777)   #4
BootsOntheSide
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
England
Eastbourne, England
Posts: 13,000
BootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Re: Isn't it strange?

Quote:
Originally posted by slicktoast
There seem to be such petty rules with such severe penalties, yet when serious events occur, no consequenses to those in charge. Minimal cleanup after lap one's and Alonso's crash (tire down, possibly caused by carbon bits all about). Ralf hits the wall (tire down, again possibly caused by carbon bits all about). Field is led through the wreckage (more carbon bits...) when there is an ample pit lane to avoid it. Ralf sits too long. Juan runs over 50 laps pits and THEN is shown the black flag after pit out! So what happens? Not even a slap on the wrist, but the race is awarded a new contract!
You can't really blame the IMS for what happened, but I agree with your overall summary of the events. it's undoubtedly the msot ineptly-officiated F1 race in years. The fact that no one was permenantly injured is probably down to luck more than anything else. The practice of continuing races under the safety car, no matter how much debris is on track, has to end.
BootsOntheSide is offline  
Quote
Old 21 Jun 2004, 14:22 (Ref:1010798)   #5
blueflagger
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location:
State of Hockey!
Posts: 785
blueflagger should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridblueflagger should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The venue was awarded the contract, not the officials who make the decisions to use a safety car or take a long time to decide how to penalize drivers. Although the organizers and officials interact, they are rarely the same people.

I have not seen the televised version yet, but I have worked the event as a flagger for five years. I have also worked many GPs and other pro races in various countries before IMS won the gig. From this worker's viewpoint, the USGP at IMS is by far the best-organized and professionally-run F1 race.

Mistakes were made, as happens at every event. But please don't blame IMS for the safety decisions of the F1 officials. I am NOT a fan of Tony George but this track knows how to put on an event.
blueflagger is offline  
__________________
I'm not tailgating, I'm keeping up with the pace car.
Quote
Old 21 Jun 2004, 15:09 (Ref:1010862)   #6
Kicking-back
Registered User
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,661
Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Agree with most of the above.

I do think, however, at most other Grand Prix venues, marshals would have at least approached Ralf's car to check with him a long time before they did here.
Kicking-back is offline  
Quote
Old 21 Jun 2004, 15:15 (Ref:1010874)   #7
Mr V
Veteran
 
Mr V's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
England
The city of bridges (one day!)
Posts: 13,211
Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally posted by Kicking-back


I do think, however, at most other Grand Prix venues, marshals would have at least approached Ralf's car to check with him a long time before they did here.
I'm surprised that they didn't get there quicker. Watch any US based racing series and the "crash team" are at the incident very quickly. Maybe the FIA should employ the "safety green" team from CART for next years event?
Mr V is offline  
__________________
That's so frickin uncool man!
Quote
Old 21 Jun 2004, 15:17 (Ref:1010876)   #8
garcon
Veteran
 
garcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Antarctica
Wilmslow, Cheshire
Posts: 8,885
garcon will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famegarcon will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famegarcon will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famegarcon will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famegarcon will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famegarcon will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famegarcon will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famegarcon will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famegarcon will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famegarcon will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
I may be wrong, but as the oval is effectively a closed area with nowhere to run (for cars or marshals! ), the rule may be different, i.e. no marshals can enter a 'live' track. Hopefully someone can confirm.
garcon is offline  
__________________
"Never pick a fight with an ugly person, they've got nothing to lose."
Quote
Old 21 Jun 2004, 20:36 (Ref:1011286)   #9
blueflagger
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location:
State of Hockey!
Posts: 785
blueflagger should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridblueflagger should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Garcon, you are correct.

Marshals must receive permission from race control before climbing out onto the oval. This is to protect the marshals as a car at speed entering the front straight will reach the marshal before he or she can get back through the hole. We've timed it.

I've been out there. Even out of the line, it is a scary experience.
blueflagger is offline  
__________________
I'm not tailgating, I'm keeping up with the pace car.
Quote
Old 22 Jun 2004, 01:04 (Ref:1011570)   #10
jetsetter
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Australia
Ipswich Qld Australia
Posts: 2,508
jetsetter should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The thing that suprised me most about the lack of response when Ralf hit the wall was the fact that it was Indianapolis where they deal with more big accidents than just about anywhere in the world & i would've expected the marshall's to react quicker when an accident such as that occurred.
jetsetter is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Jun 2004, 06:27 (Ref:1011631)   #11
Hungary 89
Racer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
England
Midlands (England)
Posts: 258
Hungary 89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridHungary 89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Re: Re: Isn't it strange?

Quote:
Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
... The practice of continuing races under the safety car, no matter how much debris is on track, has to end.
I agree, Even if you ignor the safety reasons (which I fully agree with) They are always going on about improving the show, yet they are happy to continue a race with 25% of the field out after the first lap. That doesn't make sense to me we are here to watch a motor race after all
Hungary 89 is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Jun 2004, 06:51 (Ref:1011637)   #12
Gt_R
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location:
Singapore
Posts: 5,917
Gt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Especially at Indy.. the straight has zero run offs.. In any case that an accident occur anywhere along that straight, the control should issue an immediate closure of the banked straight starting from the entrance of the pitlane. Any car still running should continue out of that sector (which ends at the pitlane exit) and once cleared, allows marshals to get onto circuit asap safely and the medical team can do the job without the hazards of runnning F1 cars.

An accident at such high speed is rarely small...and while marshals can't be blamed for getting to Ralf late...the control can be blamed for taking such a long time to respond and give approval.
Gt_R is offline  
__________________
Alonso: "McLaren and Williams are also great racing teams, but Ferrari is the biggest one that you can go to."
Quote
Old 22 Jun 2004, 11:00 (Ref:1011862)   #13
Kicking-back
Registered User
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,661
Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Re: Re: Re: Isn't it strange?

Quote:
Originally posted by Hungary 89
They are always going on about improving the show, yet they are happy to continue a race with 25% of the field out after the first lap.
So we should restart just because a few people go off on lap one?

What nonsense.

Why should they be given another chance?
Kicking-back is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Jun 2004, 16:41 (Ref:1012308)   #14
Hungary 89
Racer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
England
Midlands (England)
Posts: 258
Hungary 89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridHungary 89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Well your entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine though being slightly less self opinionated I'll fall short of describing yours as nonsense.

All I was pointing out is that we are running what can be at best be described as a depleted field when everyone is running any way ( the good old days of 26 cars are long gone) if a significant number of cars go out on the first lap as has happened in the past I don't see why the stewards feel the need to always continue under the safety car Surely it is safer to stop the race and coupled with that the race is a lot more interesting with a full field I watch F1 to see the drivers on the track not to listen to them blaming everyone but themselves from the sidelines

I'm not saying the show should be the primary concern but when coupled with the safety issue I think there is a strong argument for being a little more open to the Idea of stopping the race
Hungary 89 is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Jun 2004, 16:47 (Ref:1012314)   #15
Kicking-back
Registered User
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,661
Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
But if you go off on the first lap, or the twenty first lap, your race is over.

I don't like the idea of people getting another chance.

It's races where a large number of cars retire that give unusual results and point scorers.
Kicking-back is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Jun 2004, 18:58 (Ref:1012456)   #16
Hungary 89
Racer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
England
Midlands (England)
Posts: 258
Hungary 89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridHungary 89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
But this is another thing why should it be that way we switch on our tv's or go to the tracks to see our hero's RACE if they have a healthy car why should it be over just because they were nudged into a gravel trap, It's always great to see a class driver with the red mist carving through a field to make up lost ground, in such a situation the winner may still be an unusual one but you have also seen a master of his craft battling back against the odds what is really wrong with that?
Hungary 89 is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Jun 2004, 19:27 (Ref:1012480)   #17
ASCII Man
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 7,979
ASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by Kicking-back
But if you go off on the first lap, or the twenty first lap, your race is over.

I don't like the idea of people getting another chance.

It's races where a large number of cars retire that give unusual results and point scorers.

But it's okay for a driver, i won't mention any names *cough*TGF*cough*, who spins and ends up with his rear wheels in the gravel trap to be pushed and get a second chance?
ASCII Man is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Jun 2004, 19:38 (Ref:1012497)   #18
Adam43
14th
1% Club
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
New Orleans
Posts: 44,173
Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Totally different and irrelevant. And unfortunatly means it is now a case of 'here we go again'...

Did they have to stop the race to get Michael going? Which is the suggestion in this thread - stop the race because of a crash early in the race eliminates a few cars.

Last edited by Adam43; 22 Jun 2004 at 19:39.
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
Brum brum
Quote
Old 22 Jun 2004, 19:41 (Ref:1012500)   #19
Hungary 89
Racer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
England
Midlands (England)
Posts: 258
Hungary 89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridHungary 89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I'm not fan of the certain driver my psycic powers are telling me you mean but in the hyperthetical situation that you may have been talking about I believe it was fair under the rules he was in a dangerous position and the rules say that you may be push started from a dangerous position. However there is a contradiction in the rules in that if you are in a dangerous position then the marshalls have to go to that dangerous position risking there own neck to allow you to continue racing why then shouldn't you be allowed to be push started when you are posing no danger at all?
Hungary 89 is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Jun 2004, 19:43 (Ref:1012502)   #20
Kicking-back
Registered User
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,661
Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
That has always been the way in F1.

If you're out, you're out.

That happens in racing.
Kicking-back is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2004, 11:44 (Ref:1013209)   #21
Hungary 89
Racer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
England
Midlands (England)
Posts: 258
Hungary 89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridHungary 89 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Until the 70's 8 drivers a year dying was what happened in racing until Jackie Stewart pointed out that this was not particularly good for the sport.

I know that this was an extreme example but just because something has always been that way doesn't mean it should continue if there are better alternatives
Hungary 89 is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2004, 11:52 (Ref:1013225)   #22
Kicking-back
Registered User
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,661
Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Totally irrelevant point, really.

We don't want a situation where, in order to push spun off cars back onto the track, the safety car is out regularly.
Kicking-back is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2004, 11:54 (Ref:1013228)   #23
Mr V
Veteran
 
Mr V's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
England
The city of bridges (one day!)
Posts: 13,211
Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally posted by Hungary 89
I believe it was fair under the rules he was in a dangerous position and the rules say that you may be push started from a dangerous position.
Michael was allowed to be push started because he kept his engine running, a rule which came into effect at the beginning of 2003 (luckily for him!).

Quote:
Originally posted by Hungary 89
Until the 70's 8 drivers a year dying was what happened in racing until Jackie Stewart pointed out that this was not particularly good for the sport.

The average was 3 a year, although that is, of course, 3 too many!
Mr V is offline  
__________________
That's so frickin uncool man!
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2004, 12:03 (Ref:1013243)   #24
Kicking-back
Registered User
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,661
Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr V
Michael was allowed to be push started because he kept his engine running, a rule which came into effect at the beginning of 2003 (luckily for him!).


Not sure if that's exactly true - the same thing happened with Mika Hakkinen in the 1994 British Grand Prix.

As far as I know, it's been the case that if you keep the engine running you'll be pushed from a dangerous place for many years.
Kicking-back is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2004, 12:07 (Ref:1013250)   #25
Mr V
Veteran
 
Mr V's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
England
The city of bridges (one day!)
Posts: 13,211
Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!
Only saying what Martin Brundle said during the race (i believe he quoted the rule book) because, at the time, he thought that Michael should be excluded from the race. (Until reading the rule book of course)
Mr V is offline  
__________________
That's so frickin uncool man!
Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Strange car E46 Sportscar & GT Racing 5 27 Aug 2002 19:52
strange rumor fordtc87 ChampCar World Series 8 3 Aug 2002 22:42
Very strange to see....... steve nielsen Formula One 10 10 Sep 2001 19:07


All times are GMT. The time now is 13:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.