NZ Tintop future?2017-->

[GHOGH]

I thought this subject (NZ tintop future) would have been a red hot rugby ball being booted around in this forum.

http://www.velocitynews.co.nz/news.php?id=1339 (tintop future)

(aside) Judging by the crowd numbers in for the Mad Mike summer bash I would suggest the future might include some type of drift element. (Though will the on-circuit crowd need to be issued with gas masks to comply with H & S because of the tyre smoke?)

qu- Do the current NZ touring teams want to race little rice rockets (AP4 type)at some stage in the future?

qu- With so many SUV/double cab ute type vehicles on NZ roads, would NZ's tin top sprint race class be optimally represented by a race vehicle similar to the 'Super Ute' category in development in Australia, so a continued trans-tasman ute class can remain? A pathway for the Ssangyong drivers wanting to move to another ute class etc.

qu- Would it more sensible to just to have the GT3s (as the tin top V8 Falcons and Commodores -bodyshell and space frame- age) ?

[Icarus_nz]

Where you do even begin on this subject?

Before leaping to possible 'solutions' I believe it is necessary to ask some pretty fundamental questions first and establish the terms of reference.

Firstly it is critical to realise that this discussion is about what would constitute "Premier Classes" i.e. Classes worth of crowning NZ Champions from.
Implicit in that is ensuring some form of development pathway.



There will always be tensions between what competitors want to race, what competitors can afford to race, what is of interest to commercial partners and finally what is of interest to the viewers.

What competitors want to race is complex. It seems that kiwis love to tinker in their sheds and employ their singular brilliance to compensate for a limited budget. It’s about getting a group of people around you and having a crack.

These people love freedoms.

Unfortunately they are the same people who cry when someone with more resources beats them by being able to better exploit the same freedoms.
It can lead to lesser drivers with a bigger ‘toolbox’ getting crowned. Is this a problem? Not for me to say



Control class racing develops drivers. No question.
But less skilled drivers and teams with the wrong approach rapidly become discouraged.

The viewing public don’t help here. Less than a podium and you’re a w**nker.

TRS this season for example often had the whole field of 20 cars covered by less than 1 sec. In the mid pack 0.2 sec was the difference between 18th and 8th at times.
Hard to call a guy 0.5 sec off pole a w**nker. In a ‘soft’ class he’d look like a star.

The public (apparently) want to see passing. The ‘purist’ public want to see passes earned.
The purists are in the minority so we end up with a situation where many passes are due to massive performance differences.


What do commercial partners want?
Who would know? Usually we just take their money and run…

Actually in this era, what they want it a buzz, lots of ‘clicks’ and exposure.
TV is still King but who is paying?

Where are the celebrities of the sport?

Next time you go to a race meeting, look at the amount of people it takes to simply run the event.
No wonder promotors seem to cover their costs off the competitor (and associated bodies), spectators are a bonus.

To attend an event for a spectator requires quite a commitment in terms of time.
So what makes for a good day out? That alone is worthy of discussion.

Who are we aiming at? There are plenty of folks who enjoy re-living the yesteryears but that is not what Premier classes are about.
Whilst I agree that we must learn from the past to prevent the mistakes of tomorrow, I also believe that the past is no template for now or the future. These are different times.

The recent past was a disaster due to naked, vested self-interest.

No one is blameless in this and I’m not sure that any of those involved really should have a say in where we go from here.

Discuss.

[GHOGH]

Good reply Icarus_NZ
I just threw up a quick post last night to get the wheel rolling.

I_NZ, I interpreted your reply as semi-Zen, which is appropriate as any recreational energy resource use activity is likely to be highly scrutinised in the years ahead. How many NZ race circuits have solar installations?

[Bitsa7]

Our premier classes need to cover a few bases - Single Seater, Touring Cars, OneMake, Development

I for one believe touring cars should be that, cars from the showroom floor suitably modified for competition, base them on real cars, that's the class for the good old kiwi tinkerers and some with big engineering budgets, it allows sub classes based on minimum weights or engine capacity or induction type.

If you want to go down the Supertourer/TLX/AP4/Spaceframed single chassis lookalike cars then so be it, but these are not touring cars, they should bee seen as OneMake classes. Each year or two allow evolution of the chassis and or engine.

Single Seater - TRS is going ok, could probably continue for a little while, but it would be nice to see something bigger and faster.

Development - Ssangyong utes seems to be working well. Keep it coming and again perhaps every year or two allow an upgrade to engine or suspension/brake packages. These current utes are a few years in now, so I wonder what the succession plan is for when they are a bit long in the tooth? Is there a newer Ssangyong ute coming out?

[GHOGH]

Ssangyong (in Korea) is 70 percent owned by Mahindra.
There is likely a new ute of some description on its way. This is a UK article, what the NZ market receives might differ.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ssangyo...sports-in-2018
Probably a phasing in of a new ute, rather than expecting the entire field to changeover, might be the next step.
TC. A few recent crashes in 2k Cup show how damaging relatively minor crashes are to production based vehicles.
https://youtu.be/mxK1l2kFa4A (Crash)
https://youtu.be/K-ItAZp38iw?t=3m39s

Looking at other track series - some of the (production shell based) drift vehicles are extensively modified to aid crash repairs, some of the (production shell based) time attack cars are also extensively modified for lightening and strauctural rigidity etc.
The South African 'touring car' series is a Pace (Australia) spaceframe, (similar to the Marc Focus size), Albins transaxle with 2 litre turbo engine (from manufacturer) and has attracted a few brands to their series.
http://www.motorsportmedia.co.za/article.asp?conID=111

What is likely to be best for NZ in the future?
I would like to see something similar to the old Shell Sport cars but with updated rules for current day cars. Allow front drive to be converted to rear drive, transverse engines converted to longtitudinal engines etc.
No super minis so the standard bodyshell has a larger crumple zones.
A variety of engines (v6, turbo4, v8, flat4s) but V8s (coyote, LS) evened with emu unit/ power/ torque curve parity.

[Bitsa7]

To be fair both of those crashes were in amateur level cars with one having only a half cage in it. A production based touring car would have to have a full strut to strut cage much like group N rally cars, this would make them a lot stronger.

[GHOGH]

Maybe these examples of NZ track crashes are more appropriate.
https://youtu.be/ewftsrK3FLQ (Angus Fogg - Highlands V8 Super Tourers)
https://youtu.be/d0m84YD2eB8 (Wiggs Porsche crash - Teretonga)
https://youtu.be/DeI3x8zW_Cg (86 race crash Pukekohe 2016)

A mainly a visual display that NZ circuits can be quite fast in places and have relatively high energy crashes or awkward crashes into track hardware so safety might be a fairly important consideration if you want a 'fast' touring car class.
https://youtu.be/64VcTE4Ox3Q?t=14m51s (TCR Asia - Thailand)not a lot of viewrship on youtube - need some long anti-lag turbo flames

Another consideration is the TCR class. Like the TRS attracting top potential talent for the single seaters. Maybe NZ could attract top young touring car talent for a few races over summer, talent that is backed by sponsors or the deep pocketed Euro/ Asian types(for a few grid places) who want to stay race fit in their off season.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCR_International_Series

Brief description of the Marc cars.
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/0...-focus-v8.html (Marc cars)

[GHOGH]

Run a classic touring car series, like the Otago classic rally (new and older cars at the same time)
http://www.velocitynews.co.nz/news.php?id=1395 (The Rat's Pug 406)

http://tcr-series.com/pdf/2017_TCR_I...2017_01_28.pdf (TCR rule outline)

[socram]

Great to see this thread.

Personally, I wouldn't cross the road to see small grids, one make series or utes.

Touring cars are just one class at a race meeting, so they have to have back up with other good grids.

I grew up watching different classes sharing the track, even when the track limit was just 14 cars, but due to the small track size, there was usually something to look at. Empty track is a big no-no in my book. When racing is close and it is a small grid, unless it is a track where visibility is good, not a lot of spectator interest.

I'd rather see a top touring car class, preferably with different looking cars, sharing the track with another competitive class, to make a 30+ car grid. The top level needs to be dramatic and fairly noisy and a bit of slip and slide wouldn't go amiss. I have huge respect for the car control of the drifters, but am not exactly hooked on the clouds of burning rubber. Somewhere between cornering on rails and full out drifting gives a real spectacle.

Support classes, also need decent sized grids and again, if they are also split into sub classes, so much the better. That means more diversity at a meeting. Bigger fields means lower entry fees (or should!) and still give decent profits for promoters. A classic class of some sort is essential for premier meetings too, to enhance the diversity and it doesn't have to be the same classes at every premier meeting either.

So I agree with Bitsa7. We need to look way beyond just one class.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Where you do even begin on this subject?

Before leaping to possible 'solutions' I believe it is necessary to ask some pretty fundamental questions first and establish the terms of reference.

Firstly it is critical to realise that this discussion is about what would constitute "Premier Classes" i.e. Classes worth of crowning NZ Champions from.
Implicit in that is ensuring some form of development pathway.



There will always be tensions between what competitors want to race, what competitors can afford to race, what is of interest to commercial partners and finally what is of interest to the viewers.

What competitors want to race is complex. It seems that kiwis love to tinker in their sheds and employ their singular brilliance to compensate for a limited budget. It’s about getting a group of people around you and having a crack.

These people love freedoms.

Unfortunately they are the same people who cry when someone with more resources beats them by being able to better exploit the same freedoms.
It can lead to lesser drivers with a bigger ‘toolbox’ getting crowned. Is this a problem? Not for me to say



Control class racing develops drivers. No question.
But less skilled drivers and teams with the wrong approach rapidly become discouraged.

The viewing public don’t help here. Less than a podium and you’re a w**nker.

TRS this season for example often had the whole field of 20 cars covered by less than 1 sec. In the mid pack 0.2 sec was the difference between 18th and 8th at times.
Hard to call a guy 0.5 sec off pole a w**nker. In a ‘soft’ class he’d look like a star.

The public (apparently) want to see passing. The ‘purist’ public want to see passes earned.
The purists are in the minority so we end up with a situation where many passes are due to massive performance differences.


What do commercial partners want?
Who would know? Usually we just take their money and run…

Actually in this era, what they want it a buzz, lots of ‘clicks’ and exposure.
TV is still King but who is paying?

Where are the celebrities of the sport?

Next time you go to a race meeting, look at the amount of people it takes to simply run the event.
No wonder promotors seem to cover their costs off the competitor (and associated bodies), spectators are a bonus.

To attend an event for a spectator requires quite a commitment in terms of time.
So what makes for a good day out? That alone is worthy of discussion.

Who are we aiming at? There are plenty of folks who enjoy re-living the yesteryears but that is not what Premier classes are about.
Whilst I agree that we must learn from the past to prevent the mistakes of tomorrow, I also believe that the past is no template for now or the future. These are different times.

The recent past was a disaster due to naked, vested self-interest.

No one is blameless in this and I’m not sure that any of those involved really should have a say in where we go from here.

Discuss.

Good post as usual Icarus,

Control class racing develops drivers. No question.
But less skilled drivers and teams with the wrong approach rapidly become discouraged.

In reflection, aside from being undermined by MSNZ, what you espouse is why so many V8St cars are sitting in 'sheds' because the drivers with less skills etc ultimately become discouraged.

Without naming names several of those drivers/Dad's have instead spent some rather serious amounts of money modifying their V8ST's to go Endurance racing, and or GT1 racing, however, despite more BHP and or areo, not one of them have ever got within Scott McLaughlin time of 1minute 2.8 second V8ST qualifying lap at Hampton Downs 4 years ago, or SVG' 1 minute 3.6 second V8ST qualifying lap at Pukekohe 3 years ago.

The point being they lack the ultimate skill to compete against the best or even the next rung down from these two hugely talented Tin-Top drivers, so, discouraged they seek a class with freedoms or pack up and seek greener pastures like the V8 Ute, or 86 Series etc.

Ironically I see exactly the same thing happening in our Ssangyong Actyon Sport Ute series, driver's/Dad's being discouraged because in truth the steerer lacks the skill to be at the front on a consistent basis, so they walk away, and in some case from the sport itself because its been a rude awakening that they lack the skill required to race at the top in a strictly controlled one make race series.

I am not short on idea's to improve Premier categories but I ask were does the money come from? Its a user pays society we live in and thats never more the case than in motor racing.

As far as the Ssangyong SRS utes are concerned we have committed to a 4th season, 2017/18, but thats it for the brand as we have achieved what we set out to do from the brand point of view and continue to have lot of fun doing so to I might add.

GT endurance racing needs to mature in this country and that means new category management and TV exposure and that will come within the next couple of years as the success of the Bathurst 12 hour creates more and more public and sponsor interest in that category, however, it comes at great cost so its never going to become mainstream in the domestic sense here in NZ. Two big Australian GT events here a year is realistically all we can aspire to, at least in my opinion.

[GHOGH]

The Brit-car classification method
http://www.britcar-endurance.com/classification.php

NZers are mostly too individualistic to attempt to put them all in the same 'shopping trolley'

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by GHOGH

The Brit-car classification method
http://www.britcar-endurance.com/classification.php

NZers are mostly too individualistic to attempt to put them all in the same 'shopping trolley'

True GHOGH, there is also not enough of us either to make matters worse, despite the increase in population, most of the new Asian immigrants have no culture of motor racing, and no interest either except a handfull in drifting and street racing!

Endurance racing makes no commercial sense at the moment but its growing because of our individualistic nature as you have already said, and I think thats a good summary of the difficulty in marshalling a Premier Racing Series, many of us don't like the autocratic , way MSNZ runs the national Championship, which also burns both competitors and sponsors alike.

At the moment the Endurance Series is free of Autocratic officials and thats also part of the attraction at least for me.

Despite the strength of grass roots racing at the moment, like 2K cup, BMW series, Honda, Ssangyong etc, most of these competitors lack the financial resources to go further than that, yes, most would like the chance but how many will ever get the opportunity? Sadly very few, which is why we only have had 3 in Kiwi drivers at most in TRS in the last few years. Very sad actually.


.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by GHOGH

http://tcr-series.com/pdf/2017_TCR_I...2017_01_28.pdf (TCR rule outline)

TCR isn't cheaper compared to current cars.

[Icarus_nz]

GHOGH - since you are the OP I guess you're the best person to ask.
When you reference 'Premier Race Category', what does that mean to you?

Are you talking about 'a really good race meeting to attend', or a meeting that showcases the highest level of achievement in the sport and worthy of a Championship title at the end of it?

I'm not trolling, I'm just not sure where your posts are aiming.


The traditional format in terms of championship classes has been:
* A starter single-seater category (Currently FF)
* A bigger, faster singer seater category useful as a stepping stone to the big world (currently TRS)
* An entry level one make series (Think Mini's, Suzuki Swift currently Saang-Yong)
* A bigger, faster one make series (Think GT3, currently TR86 I guess)
* A big, fast, noisy saloon class (Currently V8 Touring what-evers)

This has always been (loosely) the structure. In any given year you can normally fit everything into this format give or take the odd extra saloon class or two
It provides a framework whereby, in theory, ability can be recognised and developed.
Interest and participation in the various classes ebbs and flows with the state of the economy; this is money-sport after all :-)

Given the amount of NZ talent on the world stage, you'd have to admit that despite everything, we are doing something right.

Simply wishing for different classes won't necessarily achieve much.
A faster single seater than TRS? I don't think you're paying attention to how efficient they already are!

Production based saloons? Sorry to tell you but to build a proper fast one these days would cost more than a purpose built car. The people who really know what they're doing would produce rocket ships and the rest would flounder around the back and lose heart.
There is too much knowledge out there in the world now. That genie won't go back in the bottle.

The competitors that turn up year after year are the sport's greatest asset.

There has to be buy-in from the people who need to produce the $$$ to invest in new machinery.

Everyone is excited about the whole GT thing at the moment but that could all blow up pretty quickly. Every year someone spends large to get a leg up.
Is the economy strong enough to support that?
I don't think so. You're seeing a good size 'ego' spend at present but the point will come when the cheque books get thrown in the different direction.
Buying a 500K car and finding 3 years later it is uncompetitive is a bitter pill.

Look, big grids can make average racing look good.
A small grid with a spectacular battle is worth the price of admission.
Do we want to buy into the FIA idea of ever chasing down the technology rabbit hole?

I think not.
We are very fortunate to have multiple race tracks and an easy pathway into the sport
We need classes that provide best cost per lap for performance by level.

To get good racing, champion the correct attitudes to work on your own efforts. Keep everything simple.

People, knowledge, organisation. Stop wasting your precious resources ($$ and time)
Stop with the accusations of cheating and start working smarter yourself.

And when you win something, you'll know you earned it

But spread the love a little. Beating the opposition can be zero sum and soon there is no-one to left to race. Encourage the other competitors.
Its quite a juggling act.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

GHOGH - since you are the OP I guess you're the best person to ask.
When you reference 'Premier Race Category', what does that mean to you?

Are you talking about 'a really good race meeting to attend', or a meeting that showcases the highest level of achievement in the sport and worthy of a Championship title at the end of it?

I'm not trolling, I'm just not sure where your posts are aiming.


The traditional format in terms of championship classes has been:
* A starter single-seater category (Currently FF)
* A bigger, faster singer seater category useful as a stepping stone to the big world (currently TRS)
* An entry level one make series (Think Mini's, Suzuki Swift currently Saang-Yong)
* A bigger, faster one make series (Think GT3, currently TR86 I guess)
* A big, fast, noisy saloon class (Currently V8 Touring what-evers)

This has always been (loosely) the structure. In any given year you can normally fit everything into this format give or take the odd extra saloon class or two
It provides a framework whereby, in theory, ability can be recognised and developed.
Interest and participation in the various classes ebbs and flows with the state of the economy; this is money-sport after all :-)

Given the amount of NZ talent on the world stage, you'd have to admit that despite everything, we are doing something right.

Simply wishing for different classes won't necessarily achieve much.
A faster single seater than TRS? I don't think you're paying attention to how efficient they already are!

Production based saloons? Sorry to tell you but to build a proper fast one these days would cost more than a purpose built car. The people who really know what they're doing would produce rocket ships and the rest would flounder around the back and lose heart.
There is too much knowledge out there in the world now. That genie won't go back in the bottle.

The competitors that turn up year after year are the sport's greatest asset.

There has to be buy-in from the people who need to produce the $$$ to invest in new machinery.

Everyone is excited about the whole GT thing at the moment but that could all blow up pretty quickly. Every year someone spends large to get a leg up.
Is the economy strong enough to support that?
I don't think so. You're seeing a good size 'ego' spend at present but the point will come when the cheque books get thrown in the different direction.
Buying a 500K car and finding 3 years later it is uncompetitive is a bitter pill.

Look, big grids can make average racing look good.
A small grid with a spectacular battle is worth the price of admission.
Do we want to buy into the FIA idea of ever chasing down the technology rabbit hole?

I think not.
We are very fortunate to have multiple race tracks and an easy pathway into the sport
We need classes that provide best cost per lap for performance by level.

To get good racing, champion the correct attitudes to work on your own efforts. Keep everything simple.

People, knowledge, organisation. Stop wasting your precious resources ($$ and time)
Stop with the accusations of cheating and start working smarter yourself.

And when you win something, you'll know you earned it

But spread the love a little. Beating the opposition can be zero sum and soon there is no-one to left to race. Encourage the other competitors.
Its quite a juggling act.

Icarus, I agree with your entire post including the paragraph in Bold even though it may be aimed at me, but I am OK with that, and hey if in 3 years time its uncompetitive so be it its still a bloody nice piece of kit to own.

.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Icarus, I agree with your entire post including the paragraph in Bold even though it may be aimed at me, but I am OK with that, and hey if in 3 years time its uncompetitive so be it its still a bloody nice piece of kit to own.

.

In truth, no. There was no specific target for my comment, just a personal observation about what I can see happening across the water and in small part here.

What I was referring to, was the people with lesser ability who wish to build or buy a better tool than everybody else and give themselves a leg up.

Plenty of folks see it differently but you've been a guy who has always tried to tick as many boxes as possible.
Quality equipment, Good engines, sufficient consumables, a good standard of people supporting the effort. But most critically, you've always ensured you had high quality drivers.

As history shows, doing more things right than your competitors equals achievement.

Before I get beaten to death for that statement and various (bitter) versions of history get rehashed, can I say that the view above is generic.
You could say the same thing about T8.

The GT model is worth looking at however.
Obviously the great unwashed on the banking like them but they don't pay the bills so I'm less interest in trying to understand them for now.

What is interesting is the fact that many people are prepared to spend large and have a crack.

Some observations:
They look cool, they sound cool and its always nice to tell someone you own a superwhizbang$$$ than a FalcodoreCivicibishi

The driver aids mean the difference between a gentleman racer and properly skilled race driver is less than in a full 'analogue' car. So to say 'I was lapping within 3 seconds of SVG' feels better than having to admit to being 7 sec slower than some spotty kid.

The Pro-Am format is attractive because of the chance to talk rubbish with real stars and name drop away from the meeting

The compulsary timed pit stop was the best trick.
Instead of spending your day driving round the back, at the end of the pit stop cycle, despite knowing the reasons why you were suddenly up the race order, you'd just feel great about yourself for a while. And hence you'd come back again.

Humans are funny old animals. We respond to emotional inputs far more than hard facts and logic.
Administrators and organisers would do well to remember this and ensure competitors feel loved and wanted - even (especially) when they are behaving like spoiled childeren.

I see the CMC guys (and others) having a BBQ and a laugh at the end of the day, creating an inclusive environment.

We're all doing this because we want to. Lets create more reasons to want to do this instead of something else.
There is your path to bigger grids and more interest for spectators.



PS - Mark, do you still have that Viper? How would that go against GT machinery?

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

In truth, no. There was no specific target for my comment, just a personal observation about what I can see happening across the water and in small part here.

What I was referring to, was the people with lesser ability who wish to build or buy a better tool than everybody else and give themselves a leg up.

Plenty of folks see it differently but you've been a guy who has always tried to tick as many boxes as possible.
Quality equipment, Good engines, sufficient consumables, a good standard of people supporting the effort. But most critically, you've always ensured you had high quality drivers.

As history shows, doing more things right than your competitors equals achievement.

Before I get beaten to death for that statement and various (bitter) versions of history get rehashed, can I say that the view above is generic.
You could say the same thing about T8.

The GT model is worth looking at however.
Obviously the great unwashed on the banking like them but they don't pay the bills so I'm less interest in trying to understand them for now.

What is interesting is the fact that many people are prepared to spend large and have a crack.

Some observations:
They look cool, they sound cool and its always nice to tell someone you own a superwhizbang$$$ than a FalcodoreCivicibishi

The driver aids mean the difference between a gentleman racer and properly skilled race driver is less than in a full 'analogue' car. So to say 'I was lapping within 3 seconds of SVG' feels better than having to admit to being 7 sec slower than some spotty kid.

The Pro-Am format is attractive because of the chance to talk rubbish with real stars and name drop away from the meeting

The compulsary timed pit stop was the best trick.
Instead of spending your day driving round the back, at the end of the pit stop cycle, despite knowing the reasons why you were suddenly up the race order, you'd just feel great about yourself for a while. And hence you'd come back again.

Humans are funny old animals. We respond to emotional inputs far more than hard facts and logic.
Administrators and organisers would do well to remember this and ensure competitors feel loved and wanted - even (especially) when they are behaving like spoiled childeren.

I see the CMC guys (and others) having a BBQ and a laugh at the end of the day, creating an inclusive environment.

We're all doing this because we want to. Lets create more reasons to want to do this instead of something else.
There is your path to bigger grids and more interest for spectators.



PS - Mark, do you still have that Viper? How would that go against GT machinery?

I sold the Viper nearly 2 years ago, because it could not compete against the Crawford Porsche Daytona Prototype car etc, so given that the new generation 2016 FIA GT3 cars, are potentially as fast as the Crawford Porsche, then no, there is no way my 2002 Transam Viper could compete with the new crop of GT3 cars, which have similar power to weight ratio's, massive brakes, ABS, Traction control, and amazing areo, so cam set and match really.



.

[socram]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Look, big grids can make average racing look good.

Totally agree.

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

A small grid with a spectacular battle is worth the price of admission.

Totally disagree! Sorry, but a small grid with cars out of sight for most of a lap at Pukekohe for example, is never going to be worth the price of admission.

If we look at competitor cost/ability as just one pyramid, then my guess is that as Mark has pointed out, those at the very top are very few in number.

If you split it into two pyramids, those with big bucks are also a tiny number and those with exceptional ability are also a tiny number.

They may or may not be atop both pyramids.

You can just as easily use the bell curve principal, where the top 2.5% are real talent and the bottom 2.5% should never ever be on the track.

So, logically, the bulk of competitors are of a reasonable standard, generally with a modest budget, an increasing number of older drivers on a reducing budget, so if we want decent sized grids, (and I certainly do), then there may indeed be a star or two buried in very ordinary classes and they are the ones who do need a realistic stepping stone to better things, either open wheeler or tintop.

We can all name drivers who have a reasonable degree of talent, who, with a better budget could probably do very well in a higher category, but that has always been the case.

Sorry, this isn't advancing the OP's question any, but my usual ramble!

[GHOGH]

Geoff Short has the 'the plans' under control and he is being paid to worry about the future of NZ track motor racing (in his area of concern).
http://www.velocitynews.co.nz/features.php?id=1422

[Icarus_nz]

And bless his dear little heart for taking it on. No one else wants to touch it so the 'willing horses' have at it.
My only other observation is that Geoff's experience comes with a degree of history...

[GHOGH]

Hyundai get involved with TCR.
TCR uses the manufacturer's bodyshell and engine.
https://motorsport.hyundai.com/gabri...t-test-driver/

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

And bless his dear little heart for taking it on. No one else wants to touch it so the 'willing horses' have at it.
My only other observation is that Geoff's experience comes with a degree of history...

Geoff has done a really good job of promoting and organising the Premier Summer Series, and like all of the SOG members he has some idea's on what he would like to see, but like MSNZ he has no power to to do or enforce anything, he is like the preverbal "Candle in the Wind"

Geoff was bought into the Series by Toyota NZ to kick start the Toyota 86's and in his first year, he managed to double the number's but in the season just finished they have lapsed back to an average of just 11 cars, half the number that Toyota built.

There is only one way that Geoff can earn a dollar from the Premier Series and that is to pack the categories in, and charge each category $15,000 plus GST.

That makes for really long days and virtually compulsory 3 day meeting's, which budget category like our SRS, Ssangyoung Racing Series, competitors simply can't afford, which is why we [SRS] will run several one day meeting next season, and only 2 of the Premier Summer Series meeting's.

NZV8 Utes are also under the pump in terms of competitor numbers and category cost's which is why they may not be able to afford to pay for TV next season, which means that the BNT V8's and Toyota will have to bear 80% of the cost of TV production, and how long BNT are prepared to support the current V8 Touring Car category is any bodies guess.

No disrespect to Geoff and his team but there is no "magic bullet".



.

[socram]

Hmm, pack each category in and charge each of them $15,000. That says rather a lot to anyone who has ever hired a track and run a one or two day race meeting.

It also shows up the costs of entry when there are only a handful of cars, hence the need for decent sized grids, not just from a spectator point of view.

The specifics or even generalities of sponsorship, TV coverage, advertising etc. and the perceived benefits, (if any) is the massive grey area that most of us are unfamiliar with and it is that area that we are probably most concerned about, when it comes to lifting the sport.

Totally agree Mark, there is no magic bullet.

[Speed-King]

The GT model is worth looking at however.

Mixed GT3 + GT4 (with an option to fall back on GT4-only) might be an idea. The time for pure GT3 national series seems pretty much over; even France, which has 15 times as many inhabitants as NZ, has dumped the GT3s in favor of GT4 for this year!

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Mixed GT3 + GT4 (with an option to fall back on GT4-only) might be an idea. The time for pure GT3 national series seems pretty much over; even France, which has 15 times as many inhabitants as NZ, has dumped the GT3s in favor of GT4 for this year!

Why not something like (Dutch) Supercar Challenge? Mix of SEAT Leon, Renault Clio, BMW 1/2/3 Series up to silhouettes, GT4 and GT3 cars.