Audi R10-Peugeot 908 real numbers

[bubulle2]

official numbers:
Audi R10: 650 hp-1100 Nm-925 kg
Peugeot 908: 700 hp-1200 Nm-925 kg

real numbers:
Audi R10: 710 to 730 hp; weight in Le Mans 07: 925, 929 and 931 kg.
Peugeot 908: 720 to 740 hp; weight in Le Mans 07: 937 and 941 kg.
Still no idea about the real torque numbers: I've seen figures going as high as 1500 Nm for the Peugeot but I believe it's a bit too much.

[Satorian]

Can you source these numbers?

[bubulle2]

Last year, Romain Dumas was quoted as saying that the Audi had 730 hp while his car (rs Spyder) had only 500. Henri Pescarolo complained that the gasoline LMP1 had almost 100 hp less than the diesel cars (the Pesca LMP1 had about 640).
You can find the weight figures in the annual Le Mans report by Moity and Teissedre. Great book.

I'll try to provide the link. Hope they are not dead

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by bubulle2

Last year, Romain Dumas was quoted as saying that the Audi had 730 hp while his car (rs Spyder) had only 500. Henri Pescarolo complained that the gasoline LMP1 had almost 100 hp less than the diesel cars (the Pesca LMP1 had about 640).
You can find the weight figures in the annual Le Mans report by Moity and Teissedre. Great book.

I'll try to provide the link. Hope they are not dead

Then give the Pesca a 100 kg wt reduction.

This would put all three cars at a hp:wt ratio about 1.27:1

[jhansen]

The only "real" numbers I see are the weight numbers.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Then give the Pesca a 100 kg wt reduction.

This would put all three cars at a hp:wt ratio about 1.27:1

lol...making the Pesca a lmp2 car and further infuriating Audi. I love it.

[1969MGCGTdriver]

theres how we solve the performance balancing equation...
each car goes on the dyno with the ACO in attendence and then add or subtract weight to reach the desired hp/weight ratio. There could be a different ratio for LMP1 and LMP2 with 2 having the lower ratio.

[Hugewally]

And a spec ECU?

[1969MGCGTdriver]

no spec ECU's. Keep allowing the freedom of design/engineering that we curently have.
Just thinking out loud here...
As part of post-race inspection each car could be dyno tested on a portable rolling-road at max fuel setting. Weight breaks/penalties assessed at that time for the next race.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by jhansen

The only "real" numbers I see are the weight numbers.

Thank you for throwing some sense in here. I mean, how is Romain Dumas the definitive source for R10 technical specs?

[gwyllion]

Especially if Dumas claims 500 bhp for the RS Spyder, while Pescarolo claims 510 bhp for the new Judd DB V8 (see here)

[chewymonster]

Yep, Porsche has been underestimating their P2 as much if not more than the diesel P1s?

Does the Peugeot get to use the bigger restrictor because it has an AC?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by bubulle2

Last year, Romain Dumas was quoted as saying that the Audi had 730 hp while his car (rs Spyder) had only 500. Henri Pescarolo complained that the gasoline LMP1 had almost 100 hp less than the diesel cars (the Pesca LMP1 had about 640).
You can find the weight figures in the annual Le Mans report by Moity and Teissedre. Great book.

I'll try to provide the link. Hope they are not dead

Two years ago RFH's website claimed the 5.5l Judd V10 had 650bhp+.

Two years further development and 2008's 3% bigger restrictors should see them around 670/680bhp now.

[Dario911]

Bruno Famin, the father of the 908, claimed 675 hp for their V12 (Le Mans 2007), during an interview on the italian magazine "Autosprint".
They were not as reliable as they expected to be with an higher output. They would ibcrease their power to 700+ hp in 2008.
So I think the Audi were more powerful than Peugeot. If you consider the different aerodynamic (Peugeot has a better drag coefficient), the Audi achieved the same top speed in Le Mans, in 2007. This mean the Audi recovered the aerodynamic gap with an higher output.
I'm not surprised for this! Peugeot claimed the would have 700+ hp before to complete the car design. It's not the right way, in my opinion, to announce a new sport car. You must show the facts, not only words!

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by 1969MGCGTdriver

theres how we solve the performance balancing equation...
each car goes on the dyno with the ACO in attendence and then add or subtract weight to reach the desired hp/weight ratio. There could be a different ratio for LMP1 and LMP2 with 2 having the lower ratio.

Then you might just as well do away with LMP2 altogether and balance all cars based on power/weight.

[knighty]

I bumped into someone deeply involved on the peugeot engine project, and he said they managed to see 745bhp and 1400Nm or torque on the dyno, I had also just done the person in question a massive favour, so I'm sure he was not telling porkies..........now I'd be surprised to hear they have been racing with that figure, but I think its safe to say they have been using well over 700bhp in race trim.

[gwyllion]

In 2006 the R10 started the race with 1300 Nm torque according to http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9368

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Then give the Pesca a 100 kg wt reduction.

This would put all three cars at a hp:wt ratio about 1.27:1

But that was what Pesca said. Actually the best 6L V10 Judds can be as powerfuls, or even more, in terms of HP/Kw than the diesels. The big difference is in the torque. The diesels accelerate much faster, permiting them to cruise the big straits of LeMans at full speed for more than half of their extension, while the petrols have to wait substancial further to pass the 10K rpm in 6 or 7th gear to reach it.

That is one of the most fundamental deceiving issues, that people fall due to the propaganda. The best engine tecnology, should be derived from the torque which is independent of the speed for a particular combustion condition, and not from the power that is a product of the engine speed and the available torque at that speed.

At 1500 to 3000 RPM, is where diesels simply obliterate the petrols simply because of overall design advantages, that makes them much more efficient, and not because of a particular engine implementation.

And overall also, because the diesels V12 make less than 6K rpm at the top, while the petrols to match in instantaneous power have to reach close or pass the 10K rpm.

The weight should be the same.

The fuel tank capacity should only have 5% of difference, which is the difference in BTU between petrol and diesel.
Petrol - 90L
diesel - 85-86L

The bottom line should be to forbid the diesels in P2, where petrol lack of torque is not so much felted, due to the much less weight of the car.

And in ALMS we can spell ****ING will all letters in capital, because if i'm not mistaken

P2 - 775Kg mimimal weight
P1 diesel - 995Kg minimal weight

Arbitrary rules aparts from other stupid turbo restrictions, as the above fuel tank capacity, that make the ALMS stupid races where the clearly fastest cars on track passing everybody else more or else easely, rarely win because they have to make much more pit stops than the much less weight more fuel tank capacity P2 petrols.

And this aparts from the fact that the ALMS campionship is a travesty, with track circuits in city streets and small circuits more resembling kart circuits than the big open roads between citys, race scenario which endurance was supposed to simulate since its debut in the beginning of the 20 century.

"No wonder Penske Porsche ( the official Porsche team) win most of the races of ALMS, and no wonder why Penske dosen't stick his nose anywhere near Le Mans where the real deal is, because there the rules are not so bended to his favor."

[chewymonster]

Very true. Diesel P1s run @ 925 in ALMS and not 900 like they should.

[Dario911]

I think the Porsche LMP2 is favoured by rules (in ALMS) at the same way Audi and Peugeot LMP1 are favoured in LMES and Le Mans in confront of the petrol LMP1.
Roger Penske says the will come back in Le Mans only to be fisrt overall at the end of the race. Not only to win the LMP2 class.
If you read the test timetable in LMES, you'll be not surprised to see Porsche RS Spyder to be at the top in LMP2 class.
On the Dijon-Prenois track, the RS Spyder of the Essex Team (LMES specifications) set the fastest lap with an astonishing 1'06"7.
The record of the track was set by Prost in 1984 with his McLaren-Porsche Turbo (a monster with more than 1.000 hp in qualifying spec) and is 1'05"2.
Only a mere 1"5 is an insignificant difference. The RS Spyder is wonderful, and its plus is the aerodinamic exasperation.
In some details it's more sophisticated tha Audi and Peugeot. The RS Spyder is the reference in its class (and not only there...).

[Dario911]

Another interesting time to compare with the RS Spyder one is the pole set by Mercedes C11 (Gr.C) in 1990: 1:05.527.
This shows how the RS Spyder is fantastic! And is only an LMP2! If the Porsche would make an LMP1, be sure it will be really competitive in confront of the diesel cars!

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by 1969MGCGTdriver

theres how we solve the performance balancing equation...
each car goes on the dyno with the ACO in attendence and then add or subtract weight to reach the desired hp/weight ratio. There could be a different ratio for LMP1 and LMP2 with 2 having the lower ratio.

It might end up having to take weight from the LMP1 and putting more weight in LMP2 or else the difference in ratio could be enoumous... lets see

In ALMS

P2 - 775Kg - the quasi P1 4L V8 petrol engine tipical 620 HP at 10K(F1 has 2,4L petrol and ~740HP at 19K rpm,... example that shows that maybe i'm being a little conservative !)
correponds to 0,8 HP for each Kg of weight

P1 diesel 995Kg - V12 730HP
corresponds to 0,73 HP for each Kg of weight!

hey???... how come those Audis seem to accelerate in the starits like the petrols are not moving?... they will never do it,... that is, to show the people the truth., because if 90% of car end up being diesels in 3-5 years, it could mean perhaps 30% less selling volume for the big oil companys!... very bad for the business.

But that is more or less irrelevant, as i said the tipical F1(600Kg) 2,4L engine has 720-740HP or even 750HP, but put one in a 995Kg P1 diesel body, and every P2 petrol on ALMS right now should be able to actually pass it on track more or less easely. It simply dosen't have the torque to take the engine to those power levels in any transmission ration above 1:1, that is, in overdrive.

Put the minimal weight for P2 in 900Kg and the P1diesel in 1125Kg, that is with an even greater difference than now, and i bet that the Penske Porsche could not win a single race.

About the idea.

The measurements you propose can only be done after forbidding telemetry, and collecting the cars into a sealed park after the race, and then doing the measurement.

If not the cars would always go tho the measurements cutted, in some way or another and so much for the truth, even more because of so easy way to do it undetected, because engine management is completely electronics more precisely software, easely changed by telemetry, or by connecting a PDA to the car control unit, before, during or after the race.

Even then, the pilot could have a button or a secret combination of buttons in the cockpit, that runs a sofware programe in the CU and cuts the engine performance right before it enters the official mesurements.

This idea only tend to make of everybody a compusilve ****er.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by hcl123

because if 90% of car end up being diesels in 3-5 years

Shame on you for even thinking that !!!

Then I might find interest in DP , god forbid !!!

[supermario21]

Does the pug have a 5 speed transmission like the R10? I remember hearing Dr. Ullrich say in an interview that since the diesels have so much torque a 5 speed was all that was neccessary.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by chewymonster

Very true. Diesel P1s run @ 925 in ALMS and not 900 like they should.

Well was some time ago i've read the rules:

900Kg is the minimal weight for P1 cars in LMS not ALMS, but only for this year 2008 (forward ?), and only for petrol engines i believe.

P2 cars in LMS shoud have 850Kg in 2008, Super P2 cars in ALMS still have 775Kg minimal weight.

And 925Kg, i believe is still the minimal weight for petrol P1 cars in the ALMS

The 995Kg appears when during more than half the season of 2006 when Audi won every race except 1, they IMSA administratively during the season, decised to penalize the diesels P1 with an extra ~70Kg of ballast( if i,m not mistaken), which Audi responded with the treat of abandoning the championship at the middle.
*It wasent part of the rules*

Yet it havent prevented the Audis to win every single race until the end.

If anyone can correct me, but i believe the administrative decision to penalize P1 diesels with more 70Kg of ballast, was held for 2007 !?... *yet not part of the official rules*.

So for 2007 IMSA invented the super P2. That is a P2 body with a quasi P1 engine restricting the turbo entraces even further for the P1 diesels, and augmenting it for the P2, and the Oil lobby managed to pass the idea that the difference in BTU between petrol and diesel is ~10%, when in reality with all the fuel preparations that goes on is an absolute lie.

- So diesels had a fuel tank capacity reduced for 9L, representing 3-5 laps less in most circuits, and 1 to 2 more pit stops at most races.

- The championship was augmented with 4 more races , if i'm not mistaken, 3 in citys 1 at Lime Rock, that so bumpy, old, small and full of corners that it could be used for Rally Kart!... ( the " Those damn diesels should not have space to strech their legs" mentality!... )

All this has made Audi team to treat of not entering the championship in 2007, and has prevented Peugeot from even thinking about the idea. Dosen't need a genious for one to fugure it out when one is not well came. But Audi appetite for the USA market has made them step back in 2007 and 2008 again

For 2008 ALMS should remain the same but LMS as put some truth in it, reducing P2 specifications and aumenting its minimal weight.

Its absurd having a situation like in ALMS with only 3 P1 teams i believe, where a supposed inferior category the P2 wins most times, with P1 petrols put to absolute shame, and only P1 diesels having a chance.