Consistency in Stewarding

[wnut]

Todt has spoken out regarding the need for consistency in stewarding.

A concept that has frustrated many 10 tenthers for years.

http://www.pitpass.com/48134-Todt-St...ncy-is-crucial

[wnut]

The lack of consistency in stewards decisions and the issues facing the stewards are highlighted in the wrap up issue of the Flying Lap. (about 25:10 mins in)

http://smibs.tv/the-flying-lap/brazi...wrapup-f1-2012


This is a brilliant Episode, by far their best, discusses a wide range of F1 topics and is well worth a watch.

Really good work from Peter Windsor and guests Karun Chandock and Sean Kelly.

[HughGJohnson]

darn... I thought this was a portal to an alternate universe.

[wnut]

List of penalties dished out in 2012, by driver and race.

http://www.vivaf1.com/penalties.php

[Marbot]

MotoGP is to introduce a penalty points system for 2013. It has been introduced on the back of many complaints about penalties handed out by stewards.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/motogp-ne...points-system/

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Marbot

MotoGP is to introduce a penalty points system for 2013. It has been introduced on the back of many complaints about penalties handed out by stewards.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/motogp-ne...points-system/

Seems a better system.

The current F1 system is too open to bad stewarding decisions.
The decision they handed down regarding Vettel's pass in Brazil was correct, but look how many sources considered the decision incorrect.
It could easily have gone against him and turned the championship into a farce.

At least a penalty can be appealed if it is only levied at the next race, can't say I am a fan of carry over penalties either.

To be fair, I thought the stewarding was way better this year than it has been for a number of years. Possibly because of the better video review systems available to the stewards.

I do think Maldonado and Rogro got the rough end of the stick though!

All stewards decision should be followed by a written statement detailing the factors that lead to the decision, so that the reasoning is clear to everyone!

Clearly doesn't rate highly amongst our tenths fellows ...

[wnut]

This was interesting, providing an insight into race control:

http://www.formula1.com/news/feature.../12/14169.html


I thought this logic poor:

"Connelly points to Romain Grosjean’s one-race ban as a situation in which history, precedent and outcome all fed into a decision he presided over.

That incident could have completely changed the outcome of the FIA’s premier championship,” he says. “But what Romain got the extra penalty for was not that, or at least not wholly for that. When you’re a relatively new driver to Formula One and you have the privilege of driving in a potentially winning or podium finish car, you’re mixing it with a group of drivers who have many years more experience than you do at the sharp end of the field. It therefore behoves you, in our view, to exercise greater care and attention because you are, with all due respect, the new kid on the block and maybe a little out of your league compared with the guys around you at that end of the grid."

[Born Racer]

I'd read that Formula 1 article and thought it shed some light on a few things (I'd wondered about telemetry readouts and whether they looked at previous comparable incidents).

Nonetheless, in reference to the following, I find I think they should justify their choices officially with a bit more info, so we are informed:

“Linking all this together you can come up with a complete picture of what’s going on. You have a mass of information that isn’t available to the public or the teams. That’s why decisions are sometimes taken that people have trouble understanding, but they simply don’t have all the information the stewards do.”

[Adam43]

It will never work perfectly and this comes across as not working at all because the expectation is that it should be perfect!
There are aspects of this that are a judgement call. Others will disagree due to different experiences, expectation or simple bias. The more 'justification' evidence that comes the more there will be to disagree with. All those claims of inconsistency from comparing two incidents that are the same when there are always differences. Almost better to be stewards decision with no public justification and that is it.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by Adam43

The more 'justification' evidence that comes the more there will be to disagree with.

I know what you mean and I feel we were better off before when they sorted it out among themselves. If the increasing prevalence of penalties was supposed in part to ward drivers off bad driving (and I'm not saying it necessarily was), it hasn't worked; that is, I don't see the drivers driving more impeccably than previously.

Originally Posted by Adam43

All those claims of inconsistency from comparing two incidents that are the same when there are always differences. Almost better to be stewards decision with no public justification and that is it.

I disagree, particularly in light of, ahem, questionable decisions in the past, such as Spa and Fuji (Bourdais) 2008.

Perhaps one problem is that incidents are not so black and white, but the punishment thereof has to be.

[wnut]

The problems with the stewarding go right down to the policing of the technical regulations.

Here was Montezemolo sounding off at the system at the end of the year.

http://www.pitpass.com/48174-Monteze...ss-Bernies-bow


You can put it down to sour grapes, but clearly he feels hard done by.

Given that the championship was decided by three points these decisions clearly have the ability to make a huge difference. Vettel suffered numerous penalties during 2012 and Alonso had none.
Some of the overtaking incidents where a car was forced wide on the outside and then penalised for leaving the
circuit; avoiding contact?

I sometimes felt that some of the penalties were dished out in lieu of a technical penalty for dubious rule interpretations.

The sport needs to avooid a repeat of the Senna Prost incident where Senna was disqualified for driving through the Chicane at Suzuka and lost the WDC because of it! Belestre and the French mafia.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by wnut

Given that the championship was decided by three points these decisions clearly have the ability to make a huge difference.

Yes and it's somehow easier to accept small incidents making a huge difference than stewards' interventions making the same difference. It could be a case that had it always had such penalties, it would be a doddle to accept, but this not being the case, F1 needs to establish a more satisfactory application of them if it's going to get so penalty happy.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by wnut

The sport needs to avooid a repeat of the Senna Prost incident where Senna was disqualified for driving through the Chicane at Suzuka and lost the WDC because of it! Belestre and the French mafia.

Given that Senna was stationary at that corner for at least 20 seconds, and therefore can't have gained an advantage in term's of time, i'm inclined to believe that that was proberbly the most b decision ever.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by wnut

The current F1 system is too open to bad stewarding decisions.
The decision they handed down regarding Vettel's pass in Brazil was correct, but look how many sources considered the decision incorrect.
It could easily have gone against him and turned the championship into a farce.

Here the right decision is made, but it is used as an argument that the wrong thing could happen!
How do you propose that we make is correct decision better?

As an example of how things can be misinterpreted when more info appears here are some fan interpretations

Originally Posted by wnut

Given that the championship was decided by three points these decisions clearly have the ability to make a huge difference. Vettel suffered numerous penalties during 2012 and Alonso had none.

Are you making the point that Alonso was favoured by the FIA. It could seem that way.

The sport needs to avooid a repeat of the Senna Prost incident where Senna was disqualified for driving through the Chicane at Suzuka and lost the WDC because of it! Belestre and the French mafia.

You seem like you are suggesting that this could happen! Suggesting that the FIA is corrupt.

I have to admit I am missing the underlying metaphor here

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Adam43

It will never work perfectly and this comes across as not working at all because the expectation is that it should be perfect!
There are aspects of this that are a judgement call...

the nature of refereeing will always be subjective and while i do agree that giving more information to the public will only result in more questions and less consensus, im just not sure the lack of transparency is the main problem but rather imo its the fact that being a steward/ref is not a job like being a ref in any other high level sports league is.

over the years it has gotten better but some of the improvements that i would like to see made:

-the group of stewards must be willing and able to act quickly as decisions made after the race leave the impression of behind the scenes shenanigans.

-the stewards should be drawn upon a very small group of crews who receive training and practice various scenarios in order to act more quickly.

-experience counts but they should be a professional crew and not appointees or just former racers unless they are willing to turn being an F1 steward into a new career. like any other job, a paid professional leaves one with the impression that they have higher standards to uphold although i concede that can never be guaranteed.

-and most importantly there needs to be accountability that those who make bad decisions are excluded from being placed in that situation again. there acceptance into a training program and there credentials should be at the discretion of an independent organizing body and they should be paid for their services.

anyways there are way to improve the situation without giving us more 'data' to argue with.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

-the group of stewards must be willing and able to act quickly as decisions made after the race leave the impression of behind the scenes shenanigans.

Should impressions matter though? As in the thread on perceptions of F1's environmental impact, that's just an impression. I do admit to a sigh of disappointed resignation though when I see that the incident will be 'investigated after the race'.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

-the stewards should be drawn upon a very small group of crews who receive training and practice various scenarios in order to act more quickly.

-experience counts but they should be a professional crew and not appointees or just former racers unless they are willing to turn being an F1 steward into a new career. like any other job, a paid professional leaves one with the impression that they have higher standards to uphold although i concede that can never be guaranteed.

Agreed that they should be able to act quickly and confidently, as long as it doesn't go too far the route of football, which doesn't not care for the truth of a video replay (which is more indirectly manipulative than F1 stewarding). I also agree about driver stewards. They were added to give credibility (perhaps more in the public perception than because they wanted them, or perhaps because they did indeed want a driver's perspective), but I sometimes have a bit of an image of "Well, *insert driver name*, what do you think?" about it, which is possibly unfair of me to think.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Should impressions matter though? As in the thread on perceptions of F1's environmental impact, that's just an impression. I do admit to a sigh of disappointed resignation though when I see that the incident will be 'investigated after the race'.

maybe mixing apples and oranges here, but thinking about all the various doping scandals in other sports, i do think that people do have a reasonable expectation that the sport they are following is governed on a fair and even playing field. once that impression is shaken its hard for that sport to recover (although historically F1 hasent seemed to be too fazed by accusations of favoritism) . but yeah i do think 'impressions' are important for fans, the general public, and maybe more so for the commercial partners that really do provide the funding for F1 to take place.

[wnut]

Stewart having his 10p worth at the stewarding system

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/187195/...tewarding.html