Hidden potential of -modern- historic racing cars

[esper]

We all race cars like they were raced in the 50ties 60ties and 70ties all in the spirit of those wonderfull days!. But arent our cars not - to good- or better then they where meant in these past racing eras? your car really could do 7000rpm for more than 5 hours in 1965?? could your chassis really stand those newtonmeters of an example modern racecar?? and your brakes really never fade like they did in those days??? your thrick shockers??? you probably reflected your youthfull personal weight with the weights of your racecar in those gone eras??????

[esper]

to mention

an MGB which can stand 7000 rpm for 6 hours
a Mustang with Nascar power and thrick brakes to stop the brick
an E type which finally got its engine development!! no overheating and during power
a lotus twincam engine which is having ccylinderheadflow people in the 60ties never coudl have dreamt about!!!
a TVR grantura or Griffith with a decent welded chassis (seamless tubes ofcourse), good shockers and and an awfull great engine (don't forget to scientifically x ray check your uprights every 3 races)
a Corvette which now has apart of power a abilities to a decent way of keeping the car on the road
a Ferrari 250 which was so excelent in the 60ties now to dear to race and thus hidden in museums
.................................

[zefarelly]

My car was capable of 7k for 6 hours in period, and still is thanks very much

[esper]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

My car was capable of 7k for 6 hours in period, and still is thanks very much

dont rub in how perfect the X flow was in those days! And still be enjoyed by many for cheap real race pleasure (FF1600!!!)
so now judge twincams Zef????

[terence]

I think that an awfull lot of power has been realised mainly with cylinder head porting /cam profiles/valve design.Back in the sixtys,BMC [works] could only obtain 140bhp from a stage six MGB,which at the time was considered fantastic then,in actual fact it should have been closer to 155bhp.Apart from the engine mods ,there really was not that much difference to a road car.The big healeys on the other hand were quite different eventualy,tripple webbers ,alloy head etc but they were lucky to obtain more than 220 in its ultimate form.Apart from overboring,these figures by todays standards are considerably lower than you would hope for out of your freshly built engine.

[terence]

Originally Posted by esper

dont rub in how perfect the X flow was in those days! And still be enjoyed by many for cheap real race pleasure (FF1600!!!)
so now judge twincams Zef????

Twincams often complete six hours without trouble these days,a good design but missunderstood even by the works!!

[GORDON STREETER]

Esper As everything in motor racing is so expensive I personaly will spend as much as it takes to make a period race engine hold together . I don't see any sense in doing a race at a decent cicuit like Spa to blow the engine to bits using period parts if you don't have to. I could build an engine for my car for 2K and go racing but to be competitive I have to spend 3 or 4 times more.
I am a very competitive guy and don't just go out to make up the numbers. A long time back when I raced the ovals, there was a price limit on an engine that was tried for a while where you could buy another competitors unit complete for a fixed rate. This led to the top guys going slower and after a short time was dropped following complaints and a number of blow ups. I can't see this being used in classic racing today as everybody wants as much (or more) power as the next guy.

[chunder]

Knew you must have been on oval man at one time, thats why your car looks like Polley's!!

Byt the way he brought out a new one a few years back, and is still quick when he turns up in Classic Hot Rods!

[esper]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Esper As everything in motor racing is so expensive I personaly will spend as much as it takes to make a period race engine hold together . I don't see any sense in doing a race at a decent cicuit like Spa to blow the engine to bits using period parts if you don't have to. I could build an engine for my car for 2K and go racing but to be competitive I have to spend 3 or 4 times more.
I am a very competitive guy and don't just go out to make up the numbers. A long time back when I raced the ovals, there was a price limit on an engine that was tried for a while where you could buy another competitors unit complete for a fixed rate. This led to the top guys going slower and after a short time was dropped following complaints and a number of blow ups. I can't see this being used in classic racing today as everybody wants as much (or more) power as the next guy.

don't be afraid starting a thread doesn't mean i am holy myself!!!!! . In my british cars apart from the van diemen there is no British made rod or piston anymore. The MGB goes on American pistons and sorry britsh rods (arrow) but not BMC. the Healey goes with dutch rods and german pistons (awesome quality) heads by Longman or Welch. but as Terrence mentioned they both go better than in the sixties.....................
but they can still break, even at Spa.........

[GORDON STREETER]

Chunder George built my car in 1988 and as I posted elsewhere he may do some two driver races with me this year in the Heritage series (lets hope)

[terence]

Lets hope George does come out Gordon,Its always good to see the names out there.I think its brilliant that people like Alec Poole come out for the likes of the Six Hour.

[esper]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Lets hope George does come out Gordon,Its always good to see the names out there.I think its brilliant that people like Alec Poole come out for the likes of the Six Hour.

great. ..........................most hidden potential still comes from the driver!!!!

[zefarelly]

from the few period articles and records I have my car ran fairly std, to 7500 max revs and delivered about 120 BHP, which is almost exactly what I had in my forst race engine for my first year.

than all of a sudden steel bits came my way, forged pistons, all meaning higher revs safely and therefore more power

I have my own valves, heads and cams now all of which I'm sure are better than in period due to 40 plus years of developement.

[Al Weyman]

Esper. I have old chevrolet works spec engine build sheets going back to the late 60's early 70's and 7800rpm was the recommended max revs even back then on the SB Chevy V8. That was using a truck steel crank and the factory pink rods (standard chevy rods are steel and a very tough piece anyhow), nothing really too special.

[esper]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Esper. I have old chevrolet works spec engine build sheets going back to the late 60's early 70's and 7800rpm was the recommended max revs even back then on the SB Chevy V8. That was using a truck steel crank and the factory pink rods (standard chevy rods are steel and a very tough piece anyhow), nothing really too special.

And then some little Smokey yunick 70ties style preps. 600bhp at the tap.......

[Bob Riebe]

As a point, some years back, there was an article in a Mustang magazine about a fellow who wanted to vintage race a Boss 302 Mustang as close as possible to period specs.

For the engine he used an original Boss block, with original Boss 302 heads.
Everything was original , or if not available as close as possible to original.
The engine was blueprinted to era specs. with nothing more than standard cleanup of the heads, not porting but what is standard (even on hi-po street engines) etc.

When done they went to the dyno to see how close they came to Bud Moores 460 hp his car developed when they went from two four barrels to just one.
The dyno read 525 hp.

It seems engine builders cannot unlearn knowledge that has become second nature, nor can parts manufacturers, make sub-grade parts to keep horsepower down to some "better" level.

[esper]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

As a point, some years back, there was an article in a Mustang magazine about a fellow who wanted to vintage race a Boss 302 Mustang as close as possible to period specs.

For the engine he used an original Boss block, with original Boss 302 heads.
Everything was original , or if not available as close as possible to original.
The engine was blueprinted to era specs. with nothing more than standard cleanup of the heads, not porting but what is standard (even on hi-po street engines) etc.

When done they went to the dyno to see how close they came to Bud Moores 460 hp his car developed when they went from two four barrels to just one.
The dyno read 525 hp.

It seems engine builders cannot unlearn knowledge that has become second nature, nor can parts manufacturers, make sub-grade parts to keep horsepower down to some "better" level.

was that the Grimm brothers rolling road?

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by esper

heads by Longman

Who he?

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by esper

to mention

an MGB which can stand 7000 rpm for 6 hours
a Mustang with Nascar power and thrick brakes to stop the brick
an E type which finally got its engine development!! no overheating and during power
a lotus twincam engine which is having ccylinderheadflow people in the 60ties never coudl have dreamt about!!!
a TVR grantura or Griffith with a decent welded chassis (seamless tubes ofcourse), good shockers and and an awfull great engine (don't forget to scientifically x ray check your uprights every 3 races)
a Corvette which now has apart of power a abilities to a decent way of keeping the car on the road
a Ferrari 250 which was so excelent in the 60ties now to dear to race and thus hidden in museums
.................................

Blame the organisers, scrutineers and those with so much money they think they're exempt from the rules that most of the others abide by.

[Al Weyman]

Is'nt that always the way in this game, some cars are a lot more equal than others!

[johnny yuma]

In Australia one of the best things about Historic street cars is that there are always new developments and the top people just love to win and the spectators love them for it---the old traditions of bending the rules a bit never die.

HOWEVER our historics then and now never went 6 hours.The very best of our early Seventies fields would have been the Moffat Boss Mustang,who held off the 350 Chev powered vehicles with the 302 by running a low diff ratio and pulling higher revs even at Bathurst where engine failures were common even in a 20 lap race.[not for Moffat]

HAVING SAID THAT,today a 12 lap race at a shorter circuit is seen as an Historic "endurance" event but I'd love to see longer races,although most entrants are middling budget people.

Lotus Cortina entrants here "with money" have built amazingly quick cars.MINIS seem to have hit the wall,MGBs are astounding since they were a joke in their antipodean heyday.However we have always had a couple of
impressive Healey 3000s over the years.Back in 1968 Ross Bond in a 3000 at night meetings had the brightest glowing brake discs [through fat minilite mags] and revved the old donk to the limit through 3 x45 webers and won many races.Got in trouble for running the coolant through the rollbar when an unsuspecting flaggie went to push him,so the story goes.

For Camaro lovers,our beloved V8 SUPERCAR head honchos got their knickers in a twist when it became likely that a certain Camaro in the Historic backup race for the Bathurst 1000 was going to finally get over 300 km/h down Conrod and embarass the rev limited SUPERCARS so he was sent home on a technicality.

He was nowhere near their lap time and I can't imagine would have been able to run an enduro,but I could be wrong.The historics only do 5 laps at Bathurst each race over the week plus short practice IF THEY'RE LUCKY !!!

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by johnny yuma

In Australia ...

....The very best of our early Seventies fields would have been the Moffat Boss Mustang,who held off the 350 Chev powered vehicles with the 302 by running a low diff ratio and pulling higher revs even at Bathurst where engine failures were common even in a 20 lap race.[not for Moffat]


For Camaro lovers,our beloved V8 SUPERCAR head honchos got their knickers in a twist when it became likely that a certain Camaro in the Historic backup race for the Bathurst 1000 was going to finally get over 300 km/h down Conrod and embarass the rev limited SUPERCARS so he was sent home on a technicality.

The 69 Boss in question played second fiddle in the Championships of the era to the Bob Jane 69 Camaro ZL1, the only one of the 69 built to compete in circuit racing world wide (?).
71 in ZL1 form, rules changed in 72 so it had to be re engineered with a 350 & still won over the Moffat car. A shame for Ford lovers, but the facts nonetheless.
Henry got its revenge when for 73 the rules were changed yet again, the Jane crew re engineered the car to comply, it defeated the Moffat Phase 3 GTHO Falcon but was disqualified as there were not 25 similar cars in Aus.

A hollow win for Moffat in 73 in his much revered Ford !!

[Al Weyman]

Also I think a lot of progress in standard road cars is to take more of the compromise out of a car, for example variable cam timing and computer controlled engines, gearboxes and suspension whereas a race car is a no compromise beast built for a single purpose last on the list being a nice comfy ride! Therefore as they operate in a much narrower band where it is no problem to have an ultra close ratio gearbox (anyone driven a car with a 4 speed muncie, thats close!) an engine that can be in power from 4000 tp 7800rpm, rock hard suspension (even cart springs can be made to work if comfort is not required) it vastly levels the playing fields so in my opinion its no great surprise to me that the old tubs can still cut it with the modern often front wheel drive, computer controlled machinery.

[graham bahr]

it has to be remembered that even if you build an engine to an origonal 60's spec, it should be better than it was back in the 60's with inprovemnets in materials, casting and machining,

heres a few for instances,

modern pistons rings are actually round and fit the also round bores properly where as back then, the bores and honing techniques werent as good and the rings only fitted properly after a lot of running in, by which time they were half worn out,

crank pins and cam lobes are ground much more accuratly, so a modern "old " engine is actually getting the specs the old time builders were aiming for but probably not able to achive.

oils are vastly better, which both cut down on wear and minimise internal friction, both of which add up to more power.

finally i dare say that in 40 odd years of progress the final setting up in terms of carbration and ignition has got better

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by esper

was that the Grimm brothers rolling road?

I cannot say, as the mag. is somewhere with hundreds of others, but it was about five or six years ago.
Bob