Fireproof embroidery

[pgrogan]

Hi there,

I know this could possibly be off topic but i was wondering does anyone know where i could get my race suit embroidered with fireproof thread. I would really like to get my ane and sponsors on the suit but i dont want to use non fire proof thread in case scrutineers start clamping down on it.

I would prefer to get someone in ireland to do it if possible.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

many thanks
IRL06

[Al Weyman]

I do embroidery and my supplier (Maderia a German company) informed me they recently have started stocking Nomex threads that are apparently approved and also expensive (naturally). However I would check with the MSA first and tell them both the top thread and the bobbin thread will be 100% Nomex. I asked them before but they seemed very vague and I never did get a proper answer. There may be an issue with perferorating the triple nomex and as I understand it the major players like F1 drivers the suits are embroidered on the outer layer before they are assembled. I guess it all depends how much you want embroidered for example I can see say a 6 or 8 inch square being a problem but just a name who knows??

PS at the time of asking the MSA the Nomex embroidery threads were not available as I recollect at least not from my supplier and they are one of the big players as I think its a recent introduction so this may now change, if you check and are happy I may be able to do them for you in fact i would be interested in stocking some thread if in fact they are legal to be done but there is no way I want to be responsible in any way if they are not!!!

[pgrogan]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I do embroidery and my supplier (Maderia a German company) informed me they recently have started stocking Nomex threads that are apparently approved and also expensive (naturally). However I would check with the MSA first and tell them both the top thread and the bobbin thread will be 100% Nomex. I asked them before but they seemed very vague and I never did get a proper answer. There may be an issue with perferorating the triple nomex and as I understand it the major players like F1 drivers the suits are embroidered on the outer layer before they are assembled. I guess it all depends how much you want embroidered for example I can see say a 6 or 8 inch square being a problem but just a name who knows??

PS at the time of asking the MSA the Nomex embroidery threads were not available as I recollect at least not from my supplier and they are one of the big players as I think its a recent introduction so this may now change, if you check and are happy I may be able to do them for you in fact i would be interested in stocking some thread if in fact they are legal to be done but there is no way I want to be responsible in any way if they are not!!!

thanks for that. well if i do get you to do it and i burn to death i'll come back as a spirit and haunt you in your sleep!!!!!

thanks and i will get back to you soon.

[Al Weyman]

thanks for that. well if i do get you to do it and i burn to death i'll come back as a spirit and haunt you in your sleep!!!!!

I was more worried you would want me to buy you a new suit! :-)

[JimW]

See Blue Book Appendix Q.9. The MSA are silent on the matter as regards National events unless you regard "Flame resistant overalls may be manufactured from Nomex III, Proban or equivalent materials." as meaning that all of the overall, badges, embroidery and stitching must be of Nomex etc. No mention of top layer only.

The acceptable standards are FIA 8856-2000 or FIA 1986 standard (I cannot find that standard). The MSA then go on to say that the question of defining which other national atandards are "equivalent" is not possible and drivers are responsible for their own safety.

The MSA point out that International Regs/races require overalls to FIA 8856-2000. http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...0_overalls.pdf

The clearest statement I can find is at Stand 21's site: http://www.stand21.fr/combinaisons/n...%20auto-2.html

That is pretty clear in saying that embroidery is on the top layer only, and that badges are on a fire-resistant backing and attached with fire resistant thread.

Regards

Jim

[MGDavid]

one workaround is to put your name on the waist belt - which is entirely outside the suit itself. Midgetman is in the business and should be along soon with more info.

[midgetman]

Here I am!!!!

JimW is spot on. FIA8856-2000 says the application of logos/badges must be done on the outer layer only i.e. at manufacture otherwise the suit homologation will be invalid and it can be impounded at scrutineering, no matter what thread you use...

About the only place available is the belt as MGD says.

So your answer is to go to a specialist who can have a suit made for you. I suppose it would be unprofessional of me to give URLs but you could just search "racewear" on Google. There's nowhere in Ireland it can be done.

[Al Weyman]

There is another option if as MGdavid says and I believe is true and that may be to make an embroidered badge from Nomex materials and sew them to the outer layer only (also with nomex thread of course, yeah right!). I have never tried this and the badge backing material may not be available in fireproof form but I can research it.

You also sit there into the early hours in your rocking chair with an embroidery hoop then David. Seriously I have a 4 head Happy Industries (has to be japanese does'nt it) machine here, what do you use?

[MGDavid]

Ooh no not me Al, I only race 'em - Max's family business used to manufacture in-house when I first knew him 20 years ago.....

[Al Weyman]

Ah right!

[midgetman]

>>>>>>make an embroidered badge from Nomex materials and sew them to the outer layer only

You have to be very good with the needles to do that!

[midgetman]

>>>>>>when I first knew him 20 years ago.....

Sssshhhhhhh! I'm not that old!

[Notso Swift]

Originally Posted by midgetman

>>>>>>make an embroidered badge from Nomex materials and sew them to the outer layer only

You have to be very good with the needles to do that!

Not as good as trying to embroid the outer layer only after the suit has been put together!
Suriously, Stand 21 is the ducks guts for this stuff, you just have to pay for it. Like everything else really.

[Al Weyman]

Same kit same skills so what have they got that I and others with similiar machines don't have??? The rules are as written if its legal I and many others can do it.

[Eddy V]

Well Al, what 21 hasn't got is stock. So if you order a suit they make one from scratch and in that case it is easy to put the name / logo / whatever on the outer layer only.
As everybody else does in the business. But 21 braggs with the name.

I could be wrong, but I think you are allowed to go through the 3 layers with the proper Nomex thread, if you put a little bit of Nomex cloth over it on the inside, i.e. a like 4th layer. Have to ask to be sure however.
The suit makers use this principle with the floating sleeves.

[Al Weyman]

I would really like a definitive answer to this one if anyone does get one from the FIA or MSA please let us know as I would like to offer the service to the guys and will stock up with Nomex threads if I can see a market but I could not take the risk of someone suing me for a £300 to £600 race suit if it gets failed by an over eager scrutineer.

[AU N EGL]

I think most patches ( badges ) need to be sewn to the outter layer only or with nomex thread.

[Notso Swift]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Same kit same skills so what have they got that I and others with similiar machines don't have??? The rules are as written if its legal I and many others can do it.

I am not saying others can't do it, but for them it is "normal business," they are quick and high quality, very flexble and have been innovative in their manufacturing and professional in thier approach, and a true international supplier, these things have combined to earn them a (in my opinion , deserved) steller reputation, and one of the consequences is you pay for it.
Some one else may do it, we have local guys who copy, but that doesn' t mean they are a direct competitor. At this stage it seems no one maintains a definitive tecnological advantage (though various maufactures have had at various times in the past) so my recomendation is made on experiance and reputation when I have had custom race suits done (for the grand total of 3 units over almost 20 years!) So hardly definitive, but still valid.

[midgetman]

Eddy, Au N Egl has hit the nail on the head, the 8856-2000 homologation states that logos/badges must be applied through the outer layer only. To argue that swinging sleeves are applied in a similar way to logos is only likely to confuse our governing body!

Notso you are being somewhat harsh here. Other manufacturers do equally as good a job, especially logo-ed suits. It is "normal business" for them as well, and everything passes the FIA standards so quality HAS to be high. As far as technological advantage is concerned, that's always a cost/benefit decision.

just thought Eddy, maybe the reason embroidery should only go through outer layer is to preserve the insulating airgaps between the cloth, a major part of protecting against thermal transfer in a fire.

[Al Weyman]

As far as technology of embroidery machines go as my engineer once told me they have not changed in principle since Mr. Singer designed the first sewing machine in Victorian times. The only difference with the very latest ones is a direct to computer interface instead of loading by floppy disc (big deal, takes a fem minutes the old way), a nice little screen that shows where abouts on the design it is sewing (look down 12 inches and see the real thing!), a couple of hundred stitches a minute faster (big deal again I can't load it quick enough anyhow and run it at 4/5ths max) and they are slightly quieter due to having more plastic parts which means one mistake and you have to call up the engineer, not like my machine which could punch right through your hand bone and all and still would work fine once restarted! Mines 10 years old incidently.

So can I produce badges then and wiukd the underlay material have to be Nomex as well? Oh some of them are designed to iron on what about those.

[Eddy V]

Max, I know it is outer layer only for suits. I guess what Al wants to know is what has to / can be done when people come to him with a suit after they bought it somewhere. I.e. afterwards they want to have their logo or whatever on it.
The reason for the outer layer only is, like you write, to keep the air in and the heat outside. See FIA, standards protective clothing, page 18 or something.
Air is still the best insulator for heat, therefore a suit should always a bit baggy, right? The tighter the suit, the less it works.

And why shouldn't we confuse the governing body, they confuse us often enough.

[Al Weyman]

Air is still the best insulator for heat, therefore a suit should always a bit baggy, right? The tighter the suit, the less it works.

Blimey thats it then, diet for me or I may fry like a suckling pig!

While on the subject what about heat fused transfers or screen prints. I use a cad cut material and although it is fused on at 200 degrees and obviously has some heat resistance I would not have a clue if it burns or not!

[Eddy V]

If you mean on racing suits then it is no, that is not allowed.
Just read it yesterday in the FIA standards for suits.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Blimey thats it then, diet for me or I may fry like a suckling pig!

While on the subject what about heat fused transfers or screen prints. I use a cad cut material and although it is fused on at 200 degrees and obviously has some heat resistance I would not have a clue if it burns or not!

What temp does petrol burn at??

and a 3 lay suit is good for what, 20 secs of buring petrol?

[Al Weyman]

Thanks again Eddy