Too many formulas, or not enough drivers? (2005 remake)

[Mekola]

In the eve of 2004 seasons of higher promotional formulas (F3000, World Series, FRV6, Euro 3000), Alfonso de Orléans opened this important thread named "Too many cars, or not enough drivers?", about the problem of the superposition of many promotional categories which claim themselves to be the stepping stones to the Formula 1:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50491

After this discussion which happened during April 2004, during the year we had many news: the replacement of F3000 for the GP2 series, the merge (as I wanted) between the World Series and Renault series formulas, the creation of the A1GP, the gamble of Superfund to convert Euro3000 to his own formula with an own chassis, and the advent of more Class B F3000 series (F3000 Italia, F3000 ProSeries); all of them want to promote all kinds of drivers to improve their reputation.

Then, I rescue and re-open this thread, to talk about this situation that didn't lose its actuality.

Debate is open!

[Kicking-back]

World Series is at a lower rank on the ladder - and I think it will do well, as it effectively replaces two old championships (FRv6 and Dallara Nissan).

GP2 has its teams confirmed and its F1 ties and contracts will ensure a full grid.

A1GP will run in the winter and I don't see it having any negative effect on the "ladder series".

The old F3000 cars in Italy will probably attract modest grids of playboys and drivers who wouldn't have been near the more mainstream series anyway.

Superfund - I remain to be convinced by, it just seems not to have any logical "fit". Unless they're pitching it as a European answer to ChampCar - with some street races and ovals, which are part of the plan.

[Alfonso de Orleans]

But if you were a driver and you are coming of from winning a national karting championship and you now have found a national sponsor that can help you get into a junior single seater championship, which you might win and then move up all the way to F1, how would you go about it? In other words, if you went from karting to F1 and you had the budget and the talent, which would be the way?

In my opinion it's Karting-FBMW-EuroF3-GP2-F1

What do you all think?

[littleman]

I really don't think it matters what route you take.Even if a driver won every championship you've listed it still wouldn't guarantee them a competitive,paid,F1 drive.The best way is the route Kimi took.Dominate a championship and then pay for a 2 or 3 day F1 test.Providing the driver sets some stunning lap times and doesn't trash the car, then everyone in F1 will get to know about it.This route works out cheaper in the long run and saves years of thrashing around in the lower formula,quite probably going nowhere.If a driver really has the talent for F1 then get them in a car as soon as possible and prove it.

[DanFlag]

There are always too much series and there are always too much drivers, it's the money that there is'nt enough hahahah

[Asa]

I think the many different series just means that drivers don't have to compete with everyone to win. The more series there are, the more meaningless they become.

Anyway the target is to get F1 test opportunities, as F1 team bosses only look at F1 test drivers now, given that even the Champcar champion Bourdais can't get a Williams test.

I think another route to Alfonso Orleans would be: kart - F Campus/F Monza - F Renault - World Series - GP2 - F1.

[Alfonso de Orleans]

Yeah, if you want to race for Renault F1

[Mackmot]

Does Spanish F3 still have the GP2 drive prize and Scholarship the half funded Main class drive?

If it does I would do Euro and World Karting - FBMW (Uk or German) - Spanish F3 Scholarship - Spanish F3 - GP2 - F1

[karimbo]

There are enough good drivers in the world to make a good show. The trouble is that most of good drivers do not have the money to race and many rich kids do not have the talent to steer a car...

[Mackmot]

There are enough rich kids, there are not enough of them who want to be racing drivers. This year in the Uk there were more million £ houses sold than ever before with many areas recording their first ones. There is enough money about but kids arent interested enough in motorsport for their parents to want to spend the money.

I got a shock when I took an F3000 to a public school in Leeds and only 12 kids aged 8-12 came up and wanted to sit in it. A few more came and had a quick look and the rest just walked right by. I mean jeez, dont kids have an imagination anymore?

[Alfonso de Orleans]

Yes, Spanish F3 does have the ladder system from Scholarship to the top class. You need to speak to the organizers for full details about that. As for the funded drive in GP2, the winner of the main F3 championship has to be with Racing Engineering, since they have the same sponsors, and it is also at the discretion of those same sponsors. But generally I see no reason why they would not want to. They did it with this year's F3 Champion, so why not with the next.

[Mathias]

Back to the question "Too many formulas, or not enough drivers?"...

IMO there are too many international formulae. The Road To F1™ naturally has many twists and bends, and there's a lot of good choices in which drivers can learn their post-karting race-craft, such as FFord and FBMW, but I think the leap to international serieses is too great , and there needs to be a better and more obvious top level of "national" single-seater racing categories before people go international (which is why I think it's a shame that F3 is going international, when they should have focussed on reducing racing costs and improving spectator, er, spectacle, but there you go).

The upshot is that you get all these European series full of people who, actually, haven't really proved their race-craft anywhere, and, at the end of the day, you look at the grid and think "who are these people?" and don't bother watching.

The immediate feeder series to F1 (which is for 2005, ostensibly, GP2) should have a grid jam-packed with champions and consistent race-winners from national series, whereas what seems to happen in reality is that financial considerations get in the way, and the toply tipped drivers are spread out all over the place (and largely appear to be in DTM for crying out loud), and the grids are full of people who have been hanging desperately on to single-seater racing for what seems like decades (Tomas Enge, Enrique Bernoldi, Narain Karthikeyan, Ralph Firman you know who you are).

Now, I'm sure that Vitantonio Liuzzi is a very good racing driver, and you'll all be saying "why bother with people who are proven national level single-seater race-winners when someone like Liuzzi can come in and dominate the championship", but look at the CVs of the competition. It was hardly a killer field.

People (well, Gaz mainly) complain about the British F3 grid being largely made up of journeymen rather than potential champions, but it strikes me that the plethora of expensive international single-seater serieses merely encourages the paying journeyman and detracts from the real spirit of competition that should be the basis of F1 feeder series.

So, er, the answer to the question is "both". There are too many series AND there are too many drivers.

Here endeth the sermon.

[Kicking-back]

GP2 seems to be where the decent drivers are going, with those a little bit behind them going to World Series Renault.

Superfund looks like it's a journeyman formula.

[jondownunder]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

The old F3000 cars in Italy will probably attract modest grids of playboys and drivers who wouldn't have been near the more mainstream series anyway.

I would have thought that, but I've been surprised by some of the top FIA F3000/Euro 3000 teams who say they are doing either of the series:

F3000 Italia:
AEZ, Coloni, Durango, Marc Goossens Motorsport, Super Nova Racing, Astromega?, CMS?

3000 Pro Series:
ADM Motorsport, Azeta Racing, Draco, Fama, GDL Racing, Team Ghinzani, Giudici, John Village Automotive, Traini Corse/Euro3000 Racing, Uboldi Corse, EuroNova?, GP Racing?, Passoli Racing?, Pro Motorsport?, Tomcat Racing?

If those two series merged together there could be a very strong Italian series, potentially attracting some decent international and Italian drivers. F3000 Italia seems to be trying to poach the Pro Series teams, by allowing free championship entry for teams with the Lola B99/50, so with any luck only one series will go ahead, as there's no room for two.

[Gabrio]

Two F3000 series in Italy are just a ridiculous idea. The sanctioning body (CSAI) should oblige them to merge the series. Since it will be cheaper to run than GP2, a lot of teams will go down that route. As for other championships, A1 GP has not really started yet and Lola hasn't even launched the production of the cars. Superfund is an unknown quantity with unknown objectives and unknown backing. WS and GP2 are Renault's playground and whatever happens now in Renault Sport, will change by the time Carlos Ghosn arrives.
If I were a driver, I'd head for Euro F3 and try straight to F1 after that.

[flor]

F1total.com reports that A1GP ordered 50(!) cars from Lola

[AMT]

Too many formulas, no question. Too many formulas without a real technical challenge for the driver or the team, formulas like A1GP, F3000, Formula Superfund, Formula Nissan WorldSeries (or whatever it will be called now), Formula Renault V6, Formula Renault 2000, and, the most crass of the lot, Formula Briatore aka GP2. Yawn.

There's only one true single-seater racing category surviving in Europe - F3.

Andy

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by AMT

There's only one true single-seater racing category surviving in Europe - F3.

...and that's essentially a Dallara Cup.

[Mathias]

You know, I thought there was some kind of world organisation overseeing motorsport, but that's clearly not the case (unless it's called Renault). Imagine if FIFA just let any old idiot set up their own football league. Somebody really needs to get a grip on motorsport.

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by Mathias

Imagine if FIFA just let any old idiot set up their own football league.

Does Bernie Ecclestone care for football?

Somebody really needs to get a grip on motorsport.

Yes it would be a good thing. But how do you drive the current "privateers" out of business, and how do you keep others from popping up?

[AMT]

"...and that's essentially a Dallara Cup."

Ouch.... (from the designer of the Mygale F3!)

Andy

[cybersdorf]

.......................ermmmm........well I said "essentially"..........

My coat please.

[AMT]

"........well I said "essentially".........."

and you're right, unfortunately (for the rest of us!). But these things can change....

Andy

[cybersdorf]

Now, wouldn't it be nice if you could build a Formula 2 car, too.

[Alfonso de Orleans]

It would have been nice to run the Mygale in the Spanish F3 championship, but...

Beautiful car! Runs great too.