Sports Sedans

[racer69]

A post in another thread raised a good point, and i thought Sports Sedans deserved another thread of it's own;

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

For the very reason, there might be NO National Sports Sedans, they will just fade away as competitve chassis's do not exist. It was not my idea, but suggestions from a few competitors I have talked too.
I Know Tony is good and he will be doing some development series stuff as well, this year, but if there is no real challenges in the future, how can you keep on being enthusiatic about the catergory.
20 Cars of very similar performance would be fantastic for the catergory.

Basically, what is going on this year?

Two years ago there was the 'major reform' in the case of renaming the class 'TraNZam Sports', which did nothing more than seemingly alienate anyone without a spaceframe chassis (losing the 'allcomers' part that was one of the attractions of the class), and attracting quite poor fields (and attracting a very small amount of actual TraNZam cars), with the local state championship competitors for some reason not running when the National Series came to town

This year i see the name has returned to Sports Sedans. Is there any hope? It has been quite a while since any real new contenders have turned up with new cars, what will it take? I like the sound of running off a bunch of chassis and fitting different bodies to them, but one thing i think you have to keep in the class is the 'all-comers' mentality, and the diversity of the entry (eg... is there any sense in mandating every car running a 6 litre Chev?)

[Peter Nightingale]

This year i see the name has returned to Sports Sedans. Is there any hope? It has been quite a while since any real new contenders have turned up with new cars, what will it take? I like the sound of running off a bunch of chassis and fitting different bodies to them, but one thing i think you have to keep in the class is the 'all-comers' mentality, and the diversity of the entry (eg... is there any sense in mandating every car running a 6 litre Chev?)[/QUOTE] A very big no to the last question......

[Robert Ryan]

The problem is there is there is no actual plans for the catergory, it appears all adhoc.
People appear to be hoping something will happen. Without going into detail, I have spoken to people here , New Zealand and the US, about the problems of TraNZam and Sports Sedans. By the way as well as TraNZam, they have 3 seperate Sports Sedan organisations in New Zealand(rationalization is being planned). All are not doing so well, why? the cars are ancient.
In TraNzam , it was reborn this year, with about 12 runners , a few in totally refurbished cars. After three rounds it was down to 7 cars and Bernie Gillon has sold his Mustang and gone to V8Supercars with Team Kiwi.
The same sad situation exists in the US, where a lack of new cars , means a lack of interest in the SCCA GT1 catergory, home for ex-TransAm and TransAm like cars.
LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL. In NZ One Sports Sedan organisation is offering a spec chassis that can have various bodies and engines added too. As I said a very well known Motorsport Indentity is pretty interested doing the same here.
OK where are the takers? Anyone please email if they are interested and I will forward your interest onto the relevant parties.

[Peddler]

look how popular the under 2 litre sports sedan series was a few years ago... i can remember at one event at Winton where there was 2 grids for each heat. The Vic's really got into the Under 2litre sports sedan scene and for a while it looked like heaps of poeple were getting cars ready in NSW.

The NSW guys never really got it happening and we had 2 or 3 under 2 litre sports sedans running up against a pack of injected alloy dry sump 6litre animals in the same race... stupid if you ask me!

Another example of Australian motorsport falling on its own sword as a result of simply having two many classes "in my opinion"

[Peter Nightingale]

We already have a V8 catergory, in V8 SUPERCARS, so why not limit SPORTS SEDANS to under 2LITRE normally asperated only, no chevs or what ever V8 ' S..../

[Peter Nightingale]

By the way the majority of cars in the market place in AUSTRALIA & the PACIFIC are 2 LITRES or under, NOT V8'S........

[storyline]

Sports Sedans have been going through this turmoil now for over 10 years. In the 70's they were extremey popular and there were som e damn good cars.

Then the F5000 engined/chassis cars were effectively banned and SS's popularity dropped off (the Australian preference for V8 sounsing cars?).

In the 80's and 90's attempts were made to make them once again the popular series they were - but the 'committee' looking after them decided that only BIG cars were worthy of the name and, despite poor fields in the mid-90's, did everything they could to stop under 2 litres from racing with them - despite the fact many of the U2l cars were quicker than some of the big boys.

Then of course, as documented, they tried various names instead of sports sedans - each one being an unmitigated failure with poorly subscribed grids, very little racing (the cars were just not evenlt matched in any way) and, probably the most important part - they were so unreliable you could virtually guarantee losing nearly 50% of the field over a weekend of practice, qualifying and racing. Sure they are/were highly developed cars but many of the failures were not always due to these Hi-Tech components.

Where do they go from here? Who knows really - but they do have to acept that the term Sports Sedans has to encompas all engine sizes, not just the big guys. Hopefully the 'They can't play with us' mentality from the 90's has gone away for good, but I fear (talking to a few still involved) that it is still there - albeit not as loud as it was 10 years ago.

[Peter Nightingale]

Originally Posted by storyline

Sports Sedans have been going through this turmoil now for over 10 years. In the 70's they were extremey popular and there were som e damn good cars.

Then the F5000 engined/chassis cars were effectively banned and SS's popularity dropped off (the Australian preference for V8 sounsing cars?).

In the 80's and 90's attempts were made to make them once again the popular series they were - but the 'committee' looking after them decided that only BIG cars were worthy of the name and, despite poor fields in the mid-90's, did everything they could to stop under 2 litres from racing with them - despite the fact many of the U2l cars were quicker than some of the big boys.

Then of course, as documented, they tried various names instead of sports sedans - each one being an unmitigated failure with poorly subscribed grids, very little racing (the cars were just not evenlt matched in any way) and, probably the most important part - they were so unreliable you could virtually guarantee losing nearly 50% of the field over a weekend of practice, qualifying and racing. Sure they are/were highly developed cars but many of the failures were not always due to these Hi-Tech components.

Where do they go from here? Who knows really - but they do have to acept that the term Sports Sedans has to encompas all engine sizes, not just the big guys. Hopefully the 'They can't play with us' mentality from the 90's has gone away for good, but I fear (talking to a few still involved) that it is still there - albeit not as loud as it was 10 years ago.

AGREE'ED.................but there are to many vested interests, and we all know whom they may be ??????????

[Chucky]

But we have moved on from the 1970's, if you'd like to check you calender. I know of more than a few people who would build cars but not the way that the rules are skewed at present. No matter how you do the math, you end needing to run a 6L Chev and that's what these guys don't want to do.

[Peter Nightingale]

Sports Sedans have to move on from this 6 LITRE CHEV MENTALITY if they really want to survive and move forward in the future !!!!!!!

[johnny yuma]

Originally Posted by Peter Nightingale

Sports Sedans have to move on from this 6 LITRE CHEV MENTALITY if they really want to survive and move forward in the future !!!!!!!

At one point in SS history a proposal was "parent block" along with "profile".
Add original configuration[front engine,rear wheel drive or whatever] and ban
space frame chassis,then you have a recipe for street relevant,make vs make,budget entry but imagination the limit racing.This was the SS drawcard as a support and then a main category.Then they turned into spaceships and everybody got bored and/or went broke .

[Sultan]

I think the irony of SS is that because they have a fairly open rule book (which certainly until the '80's/'90's was awesome), the problem now is that you can do so much with current technology - but it makes it beyond ridiculous in expense. Could you imagine what you could build with a V8 Supercar budget??? Hell, if I'm dreaming, then let's make it an F1 budget!!!

[FalconEL]

Originally Posted by storyline

Where do they go from here? Who knows really - but they do have to acept that the term Sports Sedans has to encompas all engine sizes, not just the big guys. Hopefully the 'They can't play with us' mentality from the 90's has gone away for good, but I fear (talking to a few still involved) that it is still there - albeit not as loud as it was 10 years ago.

The mentality you refer to disappeared long ago. (certainly in any of the non-Victoria states).

At National Level, anyone is allowed to have a run and it has been that way for at least the last five years.

I run a 6-Litre Ford at selected National Events, mainly because I like V8's and want to. I also own a Ford Escort Rotary which I have competed with at National rounds and Indy back in 1996/1997 and we assist Shane Bradford with his rocketship Mazda 323 Rotary with which he competed at a National event in 2002 (and will probably do so again soon when he gets his new Holinger 6 Speed).

The biggest problem with a lot of the State Level competitors (of which I am one essentially) is that they don't like getting flogged by people who are able either through $$$$ or knowledge, to build a better mousetrap. Most of these blokes only turn up "IF THEY HAVE A CHANCE TO WIN", or if they can take home a trophy. They don't strive to compete at the highest level they can to allow them to set new benchmarks for themselves. Therefore, because of this mentality, Sports Sedans have suffered from low grid numbers, although hopefully this will turn around. The NSW State Level Support of the National Series last year was nothing short of abysmal.

Personally, I don't give a stuff where I run, I just enjoy engineeering what I have to the best of my ability within my budget. I want to race at the highest level I can with my equipment and currently that is the Australian Sports Sedan /Transam Series. If I come 6th, 10th, 20th, or whereever I don't care.

Therein lies the next problem, as what most of us are trying to do is achieve V8 Supercar performance on wage earner budgets. The fact is, that it takes a while to develop and improve on your equipment when you are doing it as a hobby. There are no paid employees working on my car. Reliability does become a factor with Sports Sedans because of this.

To address another point, it's been well proven that you don't need a V8 to be competitive. Look at McFadyen's effort in the RX7 or the improvement from Geoff Gillespie's new BMW 320i Turbo. I conceed that V8's are easy and well proven technology and I would suggest that is why the majority run them. They do work well in the Sports Sedan category in a similar way to what rotary engined Mazda RX7's do in Improved Production.

Originally Posted by Peter Nightingale

Sports Sedans have to move on from this 6 LITRE CHEV MENTALITY if they really want to survive and move forward in the future !!!!!!!

Why?? Last years National Series was reasonbly well supported and put on some really good racing. Perhaps the introduction of multi-valve V8's might be an idea to progress technically, but personally I reckon there is nothing better than the sound and presence of a thundering 6-Litre Sports Sedan in their current guise.

[Robert Ryan]

[QUOTE][By the way the majority of cars in the market place in AUSTRALIA & the PACIFIC are 2 LITRES or under, NOT V8'S......../QUOTE]
We Sports Sedans billed themselves as the wildest ans fastst roadracing sedans in Australia. 2 Litre....NO.

At one point in SS history a proposal was "parent block" along with "profile".
Add original configuration[front engine,rear wheel drive or whatever] and ban
space frame chassis,then you have a recipe for street relevant,make vs make,budget entry but imagination the limit racing

They thought about it...but speceframes were ultimately cheaper and they last longer than a normal car(Different bodies on he same car).In the end the spaceframed cars were a lot faster as well.

In the 80's and 90's attempts were made to make them once again the popular series they were - but the 'committee' looking after them decided that only BIG cars were worthy of the name and, despite poor fields in the mid-90's, did everything they could to stop under 2 litres from racing with them - despite the fact many of the U2l cars were quicker than some of the big boys.

Very much the RIGHT DECISION. The Class racing that they had in Victoria was the way to go for the 2lire and 3 Litre cars. They do something very similar in the SCCA and it is reasonably successful nationally in the US.
The problems and backgrounds of Sports Sedans are probably too much to put in this one thread. Intersting to compare the "US Sports Sedans" Transam, GT1-4 with our cars..a lot of similarities.

[Robert Ryan]

The biggest problem with a lot of the State Level competitors (of which I am one essentially) is that they don't like getting flogged by people who are able either through $$$$ or knowledge, to build a better mousetrap

It is pretty hard for a "newbie" in the class to build a $200,000-$300,000 Killer racecar by themselves. Like Trans Am, used to be (till Panoz and Gentilozzi killed it off)have 'turnkey" cars that anybody can be reasonably competitive in.

[storyline]

It's interesting to note that even here there is STILL the distinction between under and over 2 litre sports sedans - Ryan obviously believes the attitude fo the series in the early 90's was correct (i.e. an embarkation line between national and state level racing).

Maybe this is one of the primary reasons the national series hasn't been able to get off the ground in the last few years (and still can't)?

FalconEL - wasn't the problem back then that the people that ran the National series basically came from Victoria? (Do they still or has that changed - I've lost touch because the series has, essentially, become a third rate one and the interest, for me at least, is no longer there).

[FalconEL]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

It is pretty hard for a "newbie" in the class to build a $200,000-$300,000 Killer racecar by themselves. Like Trans Am, used to be (till Panoz and Gentilozzi killed it off)have 'turnkey" cars that anybody can be reasonably competitive in.

I agree, that's why I suggested that whilst it takes a while to develop your own equipment, why not race your car at the highest level possible while you are improving it?? I'm obviously in the minority here.

I could turn up at most State Level rounds, and be up the pointy end, but it becomes like "shooting fish in a barrel" after a while. I choose however, to challenge myself by racing against the best cars in Australia. I'm disappointed that more State Level guys obviously don't share the same view.

$75K for John Gourlay's (Hossack) SAAB is pretty good value for mine..... (about the price of 1 x V8 Supercar engine and only 3 seconds per lap faster).....

[Peter Nightingale]

Personally, I don't give a stuff where I run, I just enjoy engineeering what I have to the best of my ability within my budget. I want to race at the highest level I can with my equipment and currently that is the Australian Sports Sedan /Transam Series. If I come 6th, 10th, 20th, or whereever I don't care.

Therein lies the next problem, as what most of us are trying to do is achieve V8 Supercar performance on wage earner budgets. The fact is, that it takes a while to develop and improve on your equipment when you are doing it as a hobby. There are no paid employees working on my car. Reliability does become a factor with Sports Sedans because of this.
But at least you are a tryer, MORE than i can say for a lot of competitors with very much larger wallets and budgets...

[FalconEL]

Originally Posted by storyline

It's interesting to note that even here there is STILL the distinction between under and over 2 litre sports sedans - Ryan obviously believes the attitude fo the series in the early 90's was correct (i.e. an embarkation line between national and state level racing).

Maybe this is one of the primary reasons the national series hasn't been able to get off the ground in the last few years (and still can't)?

FalconEL - wasn't the problem back then that the people that ran the National series basically came from Victoria? (Do they still or has that changed - I've lost touch because the series has, essentially, become a third rate one and the interest, for me at least, is no longer there).

I won't even go into the U2 Litre v 6 Litre thing....... I mean it's anyones choice I guess to restrict themselves to a class within a category that essentially has no restrictions...... U2 Litre cars are welcome to race at National Rounds, in fact I will personally put up the class trophies for them.

The National Series has gotten off the ground. Like I said, the 2005 Series was one of the best for a long time. We just need more numbers from the State Level competitor ranks, simple as that. The organisation of the Series is a combined effort by competitors from the various states.

I'm curious, you admit you've been out of the loop for a while, although you sound suspiciously like someone else I've replied to in forums , what would you like to see to make you more interested in the category that isn't going to require the injection of mega bucks per competitor???

[Robert Ryan]

It's interesting to note that even here there is STILL the distinction between under and over 2 litre sports sedans - Ryan obviously believes the attitude fo the series in the early 90's was correct (i.e. an embarkation line between national and state level racing).

To have 6 Litre 700hp sedans lumped in with 2 litres is riduculous. and has no logical basis. Scenario: Darren Hossack's SAAB in a field of 2 litre sedans , guess who is going to win?
Sports Sedans needs to be very similar to the old Trans am, GT1-4 classes in the SCCA. Worked very well till messrs Panoz and Gentliozzi destroyed everything with their incomptence.

[RotorFan]

I've not heard of over/under 2 litre Sports Sedans. I thought it was open. FJ20s, 13Bs, 20Bs, 6 litre Chevs all together, both at National SS and NSW SS.

[Robert Ryan]

I've not heard of over/under 2 litre Sports Sedans]

Rotorfan you are right there is no distinction unlike what Storyline is saying about Club and National cars.

[Robert Ryan]

They did have 2 litre sedans in Vic though. That was a state decision though.

[Robert Ryan]

I think the discussion should focus on making Sports Sedans a truly exciting and competitive National catergory. Going to a spec chassis helps get new blood into the catergory, they are pretty ferocious at the top level. The problem is how can you increase the numbers? Is is possible? They can get 60 600hp Speedway Super Sedans at a major speedway meeting, why cannot Sports Sedans get more than 5 top cars?

[Peddler]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

They did have 2 litre sedans in Vic though. That was a state decision though.

There were under 2 litre cars in most states.

The problem was that unless you wanted to race your under 2 litre car in the Victorian state series where there was a lot of interest in the Under 2 litre scene, you had no choice in NSW and Qld other than having to run against the likes of (back then Barnes) with a $300k PLUS animal and if he felt like turning up "Riccardello" and god knows who else that wanted to turn up, make racing with these guys crazy given the speed difference.

Think about the difference of my back-then naturally aspirated 8 valve, single cam, pushrod 1500cc under 2 litre car to an alloy injected 6 litre chev that weighed near the same OR LESS than my Datsun 1000 Coupe with my 120kg fatarse in it, full tank of fuel and all the spares for good measure!

It was Crazy hence the reason my car and a number of other NSW Under 2 Litre cars were sold to Victorian racers.