M3 GTS and the GT4 class

[Taxi645]

Possibly I'm the only soul on this forum who likes GT4. It might not be the most exciting from an engineers point of view, but it's affordable, the cars are reasonably well matched with races that are very close and a lot of different winners throughout the championship (at least in Dutch GT4). Furthermore the cars are more exciting as some of the championship cars they replace (BMW 130i cup in the Netherlands) and finally I wouldn't exclude the possibility that it might occasionally trigger a manufacturer to bring more motorsport oriented models on the general market.

This leads me to the recently introduced M3 GTS. This car seems to have GT racing written all over it and it could fit right into the GT4 class with very little modifications. This gives me good vibes, very motorsport oriented models road legal and raced close to standard spec. I like it as long as costs don't run out of hand.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Possibly I'm the only soul on this forum who likes GT4.

Nope, I really enjoyed them at Zolder this summer and the races from the Netherlands I watched on the cpz-website looked quite interesting as well.

It might not be the most exciting from an engineers point of view, but it's affordable, the cars are reasonably well matched with races that are very close and a lot of different winners throughout the championship (at least in Dutch GT4). Furthermore the cars are more exciting as some of the championship cars they replace (BMW 130i cup in the Netherlands) and finally I wouldn't exclude the possibility that it might occasionally trigger a manufacturer to bring more motorsport oriented models on the general market.

With GT3 costs already getting pretty much out of hand (2010 Audi R8 LMS: 298.000€ + VAT + spares), GT4 might become the standard for national series somewhere around 2012.

This leads me to the recently introduced M3 GTS. This car seems to have GT racing written all over it and it could fit right into the GT4 class with very little modifications. This gives me good vibes, very motorsport oriented models road legal and raced close to standard spec. I like it as long as costs don't run out of hand.

To me, the GTS has "homologation special" written all over it, and I am not sure if that's a good thing. The regular M3 GT4 as already been reasonably competitive, so I don't really see the need for an upgrade.
In a way the car reminds me very much of what Alfa Romeo did in the mid-90s in Supertouring One year later, racing wings were legalized, and I am not sure if that's what GT4 needs...

On the other hand: If GT4 is indeed to replace GT3 on the national level, adding wings might go a long way towards making the cars more exciting for the general public.

[ger80]

Dont get me wrong, but we have many different cars in GT3. I think Ratel should make sure that this cars stay cheap instead of having another class with similar cars.
GT3 is performance balacing anyway, but for whatever reason the baseline for this is not the same anymore and all the cars need upgrades. Balance with a 996 cup as baseline and everything is fine with GT3 and nobody will need GT4 ...

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by ger80

Dont get me wrong, but we have many different cars in GT3. I think Ratel should make sure that this cars stay cheap instead of having another class with similar cars.
GT3 is performance balacing anyway, but for whatever reason the baseline for this is not the same anymore and all the cars need upgrades. Balance with a 996 cup as baseline and everything is fine with GT3 and nobody will need GT4 ...

GT3 might very well already be fubared...

[The359]

The winged M3 GTS should help the M3s in KONI Challenge, they haven't been allowed to run a rear wing because of the lack of one on a street M3 yet.

[Danny_GT2]

Originally Posted by The359

The winged M3 GTS should help the M3s in KONI Challenge, they haven't been allowed to run a rear wing because of the lack of one on a street M3 yet.

http://www.supercars.net/cars/4639.html

[Speed-King]

I am not sure, if GARRA will allow the GTS as a base model for Koni Challenge - after all, the Porsches in Koni are still based on the regular 997 and not the GT3 or even the GT3 RS.
The wing on the GTS seems - in contrast to the wings on the Porsches and the Mustangs - pretty much adjustable and I don't think that'll go down well with GARRA.

[911 GT1]

Originally Posted by ger80

Dont get me wrong, but we have many different cars in GT3. I think Ratel should make sure that this cars stay cheap instead of having another class with similar cars.
GT3 is performance balacing anyway, but for whatever reason the baseline for this is not the same anymore and all the cars need upgrades. Balance with a 996 cup as baseline and everything is fine with GT3 and nobody will need GT4 ...

Balancing to a five year old model makes no sense and is definitly to late. I think GT4 is a good beginner class with less than half of the needed budget in GT3.

[ger80]

Why does it makes no sense? Priority should be to balance in a way that all cars are able win races without expensive upgrades every year. Its never too late for this because you can downgrade every car without spending money, but you cant do the same the other way round. Priorties have to change with the credit crunsh. Anyway, get the Mosler in. Its cheap and has a good performance record

[Félix]

This M3 also has a bigger engine, which is probably the ideal way to homologate a bigger engine to better fight with the other GT2s in American. Add in suspension revisions on the GTS and you might well make the GT2 car fully ACO legal and not only IMSA GT2S-legal like it was in Japan.

[broadrun96]

I thought it had been settled already, the Rahal M3s are completely ACO legal and have been since they were introduced. It's been discussed in other threads and the links have been posted there to see the full homolgation.

[Dauer 962]

Off Topic, but the ALMS-M3 do not have any kind of homologation. It has only the permission of IMSA to run in the series.

[Satorian]

Originally Posted by Dauer 962

Off Topic, but the ALMS-M3 do not have any kind of homologation. It has only the permission of IMSA to run in the series.

Where's the difference?

homologate - To confirm, ratify or approve, especially officially or legally
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/homologate

[Dauer 962]

The difference is, to make something legal, you need to build it according a certain set of rules. In this particular case the car is only „allowed“, but not „legal“ according to any kind of currently existing regulations.

[broadrun96]

Are you really sure about that or just hoping that a touring car would never get GT homolagation? Every article and interview I have ever seen says it has full release to race and Rahal aims to bring the M3 to LM next year. If it's not truly homolagated, wouldn't Porsche, Ferrari and Corvette already be lobbying for it to not be allowed? Took Porsche 2 weeks to lobby for P&M to have to take DI off the GT2 Vette, so something as big as whether the car would be legal at LM is something they would know and already be talking about. Now if it was given special dispensation to race within the ACO GT2 class, that would make it fully homolgated, it was built within the rules set forth by the sanctioning body. If you don't like the rules, that's one thing but saying it's not legal would be wrong.

[Dauer 962]

This is not based on my personal opinion, this based on simple facts. The car is not ACO GT2-homologated, that’s a fact. This was confirmed to me by BMW Racing Manager NA five weeks ago. If running a car along with the other GT2´s is sufficient to make it ACO GT2 legal, that’s your point of view, not mine.

He furthermore said also that LM is on their Agenda, but not for 2010 as their main priority is the ALMS. But of course, if they sell customer cars, they can race at LM.

They try to make the car ACO GT2 legal for next year but there are certain areas of the car that can’t be changed, so they have to hope for a lot of ACO goodwill.

[The359]

It was suspected BMW’s E92 M3 was not yet fully FIA approved for GT2 competition in Europe, and BMW Rahal Letterman Racing co-owner Bobby Rahal confirmed it this weekend. Apparently, the only major change required to make it fully FIA compliant comes in the rear suspension area.

If approved, the M3 would be eligible to compete in the Le Mans Series, FIA GT2 European Championship and 24 Hours of Le Mans next year. Rahal told me he anticipates seeing customer M3s in Europe. There’s also rumors of a second team campaigning BMWs in the ALMS, too. This all adds up to what could be a increased sportscar presence for the Bavarian automaker, as early as next year.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...-notebook//P2/

[broadrun96]

Except he had said directly to Speed that the homolgation had been taken care of when asked at Sebring and a couple other races. If he was sweeping things under the rug hoping for the approval to come before he could push to sell any other cars is something I have no control over. Sorry if I'm not an insider, but wouldn't it have been better to say you've been told the car is not ACO compliant by a team member and show you have some knowledge of the process rather than just a claim that it's not compliant. That sounds like something that BMW was apparently hoping they'd get solved before too many people knew the reasons for the delay and makes me think it will die a GTR death. No way Porsche and Vette will let the car mature and get the sales it will need to make it a profitable venture and would Rahal really bankroll a 2 car effort himself?

[Félix]

So why not build an orange homologation special with the suspension to the ACO's liking and add in 400cc (easy to expand to 500) for extra grunt?

[Speed-King]

To me, the GTS has "homologation special" written all over it, and I am not sure if that's a good thing. The regular M3 GT4 as already been reasonably competitive, so I don't really see the need for an upgrade.
In a way the car reminds me very much of what Alfa Romeo did in the mid-90s in Supertouring One year later, racing wings were legalized, and I am not sure if that's what GT4 needs...

Guess what car has a nice little wing now

Talked to a guy from BMW Motorsport at the Ring - he said that the wing is adapted from the GTS, but the splitter is a bespoke racing part and the engine will stay at 4.0l since there aren't enough GTSs out there to justify rehomologation.

Not really sure what to make of that. Building a homologation special would have been bad enough, but in this case they were simply allowed to slap some aeroparts on the car without a real connection to the production version.
But then it makes the car look pretty good, kinda like a big brother to the WTCC-spec 320s.

BTW: the BMW M3 GT4 EVO is available for 123.000€.

Another GT4 related tidbit: The 911s in GT4 are actually GT3 Cup-Porsches with the 3.6l engine and an up/downgrade kit. Actually one of the most cost effective ways to go GT4 racing other than the Ginetta.

[Aysedasi]

In Tescos colours too - perfect!

[merlot brougham]

I'd have to do some digging to find where I read it but I am almost 100% certain the solution for the IMSA vs. ACO homologation was to just go ahead and use the ACO approved rear suspension for the ALMS cars too. It simplifies the program, allows Schnitzer and RLR teams to share data and parts and does away with any differences the drivers feel in the cars which makes them more interchangeable for enduros. If I'm not mistaken they were going to make the changes over the off-season.

[merlot brougham]

Oh, and incidentally, in a recent issue of Bimmer magazine (US only) they did a little article on the M3 GT4. It isn't legal for any race series in the US or for the road so a guy got Turner Motorsport to work with BMW Motorsport to import one for him for track days.

His cost, $180K without transport costs. For track days.

[stuart thompson]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

In Tescos colours too - perfect!

Another boring Porsche fan?

[pederb]

Originally Posted by merlot brougham

Oh, and incidentally, in a recent issue of Bimmer magazine (US only) they did a little article on the M3 GT4. It isn't legal for any race series in the US or for the road so a guy got Turner Motorsport to work with BMW Motorsport to import one for him for track days.

His cost, $180K without transport costs. For track days.

Are not the M3's running in GA modified GT4 M3's?

Cheers