Lap 123 in Vegas

[macdaddy]

Tracy and Bourdais make contact (again).

Both drivers, and their respective teams, predictably had differing views of the altercation.

Bourdais: Tracy did not commit to the pits by placing two wheels below the white line at the end of the backstretch. Bourdais therefore did not know of PT's intention to pit, and was surprised when he slowed down.

Tracy: The N/H camp monitors radio communications, and should have known that he was about to pit. Bourdais was the one following, he was driving on the white line, and it was his responsibility to make a clean pass.

How do you feel about this incident in particular?
And how do you feel about one, or both, of the drivers being sanctioned?

Myself? This incident was Bourdais' fault, it was avoidable, and looking back upon past incidences Bourdais should be sanctioned.

[SPRacer]

I have to lean toward agreeing with Bourdais. I don't think he would intentionally run into the back of Tracy at 200 mph. Shortly before the contact they were both up high, so there's really was no indication whatsoever that Tracy had any intention at all of pitting. Very unlucky incident, I'm sure there will be a big fallout in the coming days.

[lnin0]

Two words : drivers meeting.

Paul, as all the drivers, were instructed by ChampCar that they need to make everyone fully aware when they are going to pit by placing two wheels below the white line on approach. No part of the instructions said radio chatter the other teams might overhear and be able to convey to their driver was an acceptable way to inform the guy behind you.

Some of their incidents have been very questionable this year but I think this is the most clear cut. Paul never put two wheels below the white line before slowing up to pit.

[Hazard]

Due to the 'Drivers briefing' excuse used by Newman-Haas, where the approach to the pitlane was discussed and Tracy did not follow, and the other half where Bourdais' team should have informed him he was pitting, leads to me to a draw I'm afraid.

I think both drivers and teams should be sternly told to make sure this doesn't happen again, but I can't place blame outside of 'racing incident'

[carsten66]

I think that accident isn't that clear, shure shortly before the contact they were both up high but then Tracy went deep down... and Bourdais followed him and bumped him when Tracy had two wheels on the line (that's the way I saw it)... but at one point you have to start with your operation to pit and that's diffiult when the driver behind you is so close... and witout loosing too much time and I don't believe Bourdais saying that he didn't knew that PT wanted pitting at that point... okay both drivers are vey agressive ones (and that's fine) but that's not the first time they come together and I think it's time that Bourdais heard a word from the officals too.

[djb]

I too saw the replay has showing the contact happening when Tracy had in fact gone down to the white line. I think a fair point to mention is that with his cover off, Bourdais may have been keeping it closer than perhaps normally necessary so to keep the draft and negate any slowup he would have had in the open. I may be wrong with that, but it could be a factor. Given that yes, they are both being very aggressive towards each other, in the past Tracy has been dealt with very severely for this sort of thing, so I would have to say that Bourdais should be taken to task for this. He was behind and its not up the guy in front to keep someone from hitting you.

[Amar7605]

Is is possible that Paul Tracy could've put both all four wheels below the white line and then slowed down? That way he doesn't impede the race-speed cars behind him? I am not blaming Tracy or anything, but coud that manuver have been possible?

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

I'm more inclined to side with Bourdais, the reasoning they present makes more sense than simply accusing the other side of not listening to another team's radio.

[mp356a]

PT's fault IMHO but as he was the one knocked out of the race, no sanction.
Were I to guess from what I've seen of PT, he would be likely to wait until the last moment and slow down abruptly to keep Sebastian and NH guessing. As far as I am concerned, he out-clevered himself.
Mike

[Jordi]

As close as they were, PT should have probably gone down at the exit of turn 2 for Bourdais to know he was going to pit. As it was, probably Bourdais thought they were just racing and didn't expect him to slow down.

It is a racing incident in my view, with a liittle bit more fault by Tracy. I mean, with the cars running so close to the white line, you'd almost need an additional light in the back of the car, a green light for example, so that when you push the light the others behind are able to know you're going to pit.

[enemy-ace]

A racing incident IMO. I do think both driver's need to be singled out by officials though. I like their competitive spirit, but they really have to start racing a little smarter.

[okeefe]

Well, at risk again of being too true and honest, I have to admit this repeated over and over again is kinda taking the fun out of watching the race for me - like going on dates and having the same old trouble over and over - until you finally call it off cause you're sick of first the trouble; then the phoney fingerpointing. It seems to this Rookie that every time Tracy does well, Bourdais impedes Tracy's legitimate progress unfairly, like a crybaby bully who must know deep down he doesn't have the parts to evenhandedly play to win against an honestly skilled Tracy. I do believe that Tracy is the hero here - staying in there and trying over and over when he has to be expecting he's going to get the dirty end of the stick yet again - no one respects a bully deep down at the end of the day.

[2112]

It might have been a racing incident when it comes down to it, but I cannot get over how Bourdais never admits fault for anything. Remember LeMans 2004?, Martin Short I`m sure has an opinion.

[okeefe]

Originally Posted by 2112

It might have been a racing incident when it comes down to it, but I cannot get over how Bourdais never admits fault for anything. Remember LeMans 2004?, Martin Short I`m sure has an opinion.

Yes indeed, I've noticed that this trouble seems to always be around Bourdais - but he always cries himself to be the victim - and points fingers at the others around him. A typical bully lacking in his own self esteem in my opinion. If Champ Car allows it to go on again and again, I find that to be an ever bigger turn off. If Bourdais was any kind of true Champion or even a man in my opinion - he would have done things much differently in these "incidents". I personally love to watch Tracy race; but Bourdais' actions are making me dread the experience I once couldn't get enough of. I doubt that Bourdais will be able to shake this stigma in the long run -- regardless of Championship. Sportsmanship and common courtesy and respect are important qualities too, I believe. I've sure noticed that shortfall on track.

[Jordi]

Wait a moment. Yes, we remember Le Mans 2004 but as far as I know it wasn't exactly like Vegas 2005.

Second, okeefe, not all of Tracy's troubles are created by Bourdais. Especially not at Denver. I mean, even if they sanctioned Bourdais, PT's still behind Oriol.

I would say that in any of the three major incidents they've had this year none of them was clearly at fault.

[okeefe]

Originally Posted by Jordi

Wait a moment. Yes, we remember Le Mans 2004 but as far as I know it wasn't exactly like Vegas 2005.

Second, okeefe, not all of Tracy's troubles are created by Bourdais. Especially not at Denver. I mean, even if they sanctioned Bourdais, PT's still behind Oriol.

I would say that in any of the three major incidents they've had this year none of them was clearly at fault.

Well I imagine I'm probably the only fan who cares more about PT getting a fair shake and treated decent than about him winning the championship. I find Bourdais' bellyaching that Tracy is the cause of troubles on that track to be tiring. No matter how many champsionships Bourdais wins for speed; I do wonder if he grows weary of his own voice continually blaming the other guy - sometimes I wonder who it is he is trying to convince of this - the fans; Champcar; or himself?

[mac]

I haven't seen the incident, but blaming the other guy for his team not hearing another team's radio seams a bit thin to me.

[Jordi]

I don't think Paul is getting an unfair deal. Sure he crashed out, but what else can the other guy do when he's like a finger away from you and you slow down?

Plus, Bourdais is not the only driver who blames the other. Actually, the majority of drivers do...

[macdaddy]

Right now, we're 17/13 faulting Bourdais/Tracy.

There was a similar poll on the CC website, where 70% of the voters suggested that the accident was Bourdais' fault.

[okeefe]

Originally Posted by macdaddy

Right now, we're 17/13 faulting Bourdais/Tracy.

There was a similar poll on the CC website, where 70% of the voters suggested that the accident was Bourdais' fault.

Help a rookie here MacDad - now what? Now that I'm done mouthing off about Bourdais; now that a race is gone; the standings as they are; now what are some things that COULD be done by Champ Car to try to make me stop gagging about all this.

[drewdawg727]

I voted that it is Bourdais' fault, and he should be sanctioned.
I liked what Micklewright said, "No matter which way you cut it, we were still hit from behind..."
Bourdais should not have been following Tracy down to the bottom of the track. I know all of the hoopla about how you need to go down towards the bottom of the track before pitting to show the drivers behind you, but i think i recall them saying that Tracy didn't know he was supposed to pit until the middle of the backstraight.
I really think that it is unfair that Bourdais causes all this trouble and gets away with it, especially with the previous two incidents this season. I also began to wonder about that deal with almost making contact with Servia after that restart.
In my opinion, Bourdais was driving very recklessly this race, which isn't an excuse, even if he did lose his shock cover.

[macdaddy]

I watched last year's Las Vegas race just the other night. Bourdais made a reckless move on Junqueira on the last lap. Bruno was absolutely furious - I've never seen him like that before.

[Jordi]

I've got to wonder though - does foot-to-the-floor racing, like the one at Vegas where you have to robustly defend the low line, promote reckless moves?
With the Handford device, racing was quite wild, but it was rarely reckless as drivers were completely able to pass each other.

[nickyf1]

that could have been the spotter.....

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by drewdawg727

Bourdais should not have been following Tracy down to the bottom of the track. I know all of the hoopla about how you need to go down towards the bottom of the track before pitting to show the drivers behind you, but i think i recall them saying that Tracy didn't know he was supposed to pit until the middle of the backstraight.

If Tracy didn't know he was going to pit till so late, Bourdai would not have known Tracy was pitting, whats wrong with Bourdai drafting Tracy to the bottom of the track