Thiessen against customer chassis

[Born Racer]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/56107

In the above article, Mario Thiessen expresses concern about customer chassis in relation to the possibility of many more teams having what would amount to a B-team, and in effect then, half the amount of teams really existing, but with each team having 4 drivers.

This is an important point. I sometimes feel very suspicious of Red Bull´s motives in owning a second team. They are two different teams in one way, but Red Bull takes advantage of the collusion that exists between the two, by making them one organisation in any way that may benefit them.

This is one line of argument, but my own primary complaint is with the fact that in my view and perception of Formula 1, it should be a sport where each team has to design their own car. A large amount of us would probably consider ourselves "purists", whatever that is! For me though, part of the purity of F1 is that teams come with their own cars.

Yes, I know it has not always been thus, but the days when there were many customer cars, were the true privateer days anyway, where the likes of Rob Walker would buy a chassis and go racing. These days, with fewer teams anyway, and especially with people complaining the cars are all too similar to each other (an inevitability of the stricter chassis design regulations than in bygone eras, and an increased scientific knowledge of what makes a car go well over a Grand Prix within those rules), we need all the individuality from different teams that we can get.

[Knowlesy]

For me, we need individuality, but we will still have teams designing their own cars whether there are customer teams or not.

When push comes to shove, the more teams we have (and, more importantly, the easier it is to get a team set up in the first place) the better.

And what we will probably find is teams coming into F1 with a customer chassis to get their feet under the table, and then design their own efforts in time.

And in any case, teams just replicate design trends anyways.

I'm all for it me. Give me big grids and plucky privateers.

[Born Racer]

Yes, I think the number of slots available should be opened up.

One thing I dislike about this Red Bull/Toro Rosso situation is that we are told they are 2 different teams, but in some ways they clearly act as 1. It is confusing and unsatisfying to see 4 cars from 2 different teams on the track knowing they could be acting as one unit.

[Leighton Irwin]

CC and IRL as now both basically one engine one chassis series. CC completely by rule. I feel the diversity does make for more interest. I would like to see more cars and a return to the privateers but economically not feasible. Dating myself again!!

[FPV GTHO]

Perhaps people would prefer simply the "chassis" to be a customer unit, with teams still responsible for bodywork.

Im not sure how the FIA plans to introduce it for 2008, but David Richards for example expects to be able to buy a complete car/engine and go racing with that.

[RaceFreak]

Dr T's company has spent a boatload of $ developing what used to be the Sauber. He doesn't want some little team buying components and instantly becoming competitive. That would be....like.....CCWS. Perhaps he is a bit jealous as no privateer is beating a path to BMW's door for their chassis or engine. He is a proponent of the status quo: where big money teams run up front and the Jordan's/Striker's and Minardis bring up the rear. IMHO THAT is what was killing F1. From that perspective I guess it goes to the core of the question "just what IS F1".

[neilap]

The most important aspect for me is better racing. The diversity I want to see is different teams contending for podiums and wins. It is highly unlikely that the teams "buying" chassis will influence the winner of the race. These teams will still be fighting from the back to the midfield. Without help, then they would be lost. The top teams will not be using this strategy so I feel the only issue here is making the midfield more competitive. I don't see that as a bad thing at all.

[Born Racer]

Why bother designing your own chassis if they let teams buy one? We might end up with just a few chassis manufacturers, and then a backlash from some of these if rival teams to which they have sold them start beating them. Then the teams would refuse to sell their chassis and some teams might suddenly find themselves out on their ear.

How would it work? Would the FIA insist that teams must be prepared to sell their chassis to a certain number of other teams? There´s too much potential for this kind of mayhem plus a lot more that I probably haven´t even thought of.

Incidentally, I know Champ Car is based upon a single chassis design, and I enjoy the series, but F1 should offer something different and I believe one of its strengths and challenges is and should be the design of one´s own chassis.

[Teretonga]

The scenario Born Racer is referring to is unlikely. In the old days of privateers they bought last years car and that situation is likely to remain.

Any customer chassis is likely to be a less developed model but it would save expense in the development costs.
Engines can be traded and bought but no one buys the latest up to the minute development model. Midland didn't have the latest Toyota nor Red Bull have the latest Ferrari... not judging by the results anyway...so why would it be different with chassis. Mr Thiessen's argument won't stack up.

Red Bull/STR is a little unusual in that it is NOT a manufacturer and it doesn't have a manufacturer base. The one way of getting an advantage is to run 4 cars and collaborate on development. Running a second team with the same chassis but a different motor may provide some gain but the real gain is in the cost over building two different cars and running two design teams.For a non manufacturer this is perfectly sensible and reasonable.
The flip side is if they get it wrong they all suffer....
Honda and Super Aguri... Well SA is a little team making up numbers and even if they had last years (2006) Honda are they going to be a threat? Even if we had Dave Richards turning up in 2007 with a 2006 Renault and a couple of good drivers would that make the championship more interesting or less interesting?
I think I know what I would prefer.
The other hindrance is the Bernie and Max closed shop/ 2 car team idea. I would be perfectly happy to let it be an open slather, anyone can run, fastest 24/26 can start championship..... what we have have is pandering to vested interests.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

The other hindrance is the Bernie and Max closed shop/ 2 car team idea. I would be perfectly happy to let it be an open slather, anyone can run, fastest 24/26 can start championship..... what we have have is pandering to vested interests.

For a series that prides itself on open competition,it doesn't seem too keen to share that openness.Like a very select Golf Club,maybe it's not the Riff-Raff it fears,but the additional competition.

[Marbot]

"It is a healthy plan, and having just four or five big players controlling the grid in our view would not be F1 any more."

I'm not too sure what Mario is trying to say here.

[Teretonga]

Probably a concern that if Daimler Chrysler (Mercedes), Toyota, Honda, Nissan-Renault, Fiat-Ferrari-Alfa Romeo-Maserati, plus one other (Audi-VW? GM? Ford?) controlled F1 there wouldn't be any room for BMW.... or the cost would be outside what BMW could spend to be competitive... They are all bigger than BMW.

Which shows that basically the manufacturers will spend as much as they can justify for success.

[Teretonga]

Probably a concern that if Daimler Chrysler (Mercedes), Toyota, Honda, Nissan-Renault, Fiat-Ferrari-Alfa Romeo-Maserati, plus one other (Audi-VW? GM? Ford?) controlled F1 there wouldn't be any room for BMW.... or the cost would be outside what BMW could spend to be competitive... They are all bigger than BMW.

Which shows that basically the manufacturers will spend as much as they can justify for success.

[Nicholosophy]

If we are going to have customer chassis again then they need to open up F1 so that people can buy these chassis and race them in F1. If only the current 12 teams (from 2008) can compete there is going to be a situation where customer chassis just won't be economical - unless we see McLaren running a Ferrari chassis

I completely understand the need for a limit on the number of cars competing in a race for safety reasons but I see no reason for F1 to create a 'false economy' by cutting out the option of competitors coming into the sport and having a chance.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by NickoGP

If we are going to have customer chassis again then they need to open up F1 so that people can buy these chassis and race them in F1. If only the current 12 teams (from 2008) can compete there is going to be a situation where customer chassis just won't be economical - unless we see McLaren running a Ferrari chassis

I completely understand the need for a limit on the number of cars competing in a race for safety reasons but I see no reason for F1 to create a 'false economy' by cutting out the option of competitors coming into the sport and having a chance.

24 cars is a stupid limit. Monaco should always be limited to 20, but the rest should be based on a formula like everything else. Bahrain and Spa could easily do 30 cars or more

[jhansen]

The addition of customer cars would compress the grid and thus make the racing more competitive. Not a bad thing at all. Should the manufacturers decide to leave the series in any numbers I'd almost say that customer cars would be a necessity.

Take Moto GP for example. Ducati, Honda, and Yamaha all have customer teams. In Honda's case, the customer teams even win races and have challenged for the championship in the past. Due to less manufacturers in that series customer teams are a must and have kept the series at a high level.

The important aspect is that customer teams need to be able to act independantly of the team they purchase the cars from. In that respect, "B" teams may be a bit detrimental. But true customer teams could be a good thing.

[Born Racer]

I´ll try to put my main grievances on this matter more succintly.

If customer chassis will be allowed, why bother designing your own car?

Should designing your own car not be part of the challenge?

[Teretonga]

Born racer:"Should designing your own car not be part of the challenge?"

Not necessarily. for a constructors championship, yes, but not for a WDC. Bernie and max have conspired to cut customer chassis out with the present rules and probably with manufacturer support but that stuffed privateers so they conspired to cut privateers out altogether....

The WDC is for drivers so it really shouldn't matter what chassis/engine combo they drive. The whole thing has been artificially managed and set up. That is the root of the problem.

[Notso Swift]

Methinks MArio would complain less if he was granted a licence or joint ventured to run a development team, say with MINI branding.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I´ll try to put my main grievances on this matter more succintly.

If customer chassis will be allowed, why bother designing your own car?

Should designing your own car not be part of the challenge?

Teams like Ferrari, Renault and Mclaren will always build their own cars because they have the know how, desire, and budget. Just because a team buys a customer car does not mean they lack the desire to build one.