2015 title decider discussion (split from 2019!)

[steve_r]

The whole field let Shedden win it when he was head-to-head against Plato for the title a few years back. It was a miracle akin the the parting of the red sea. Chickens coming home to roost etc.

Not sure that this time round any of the 3 or 4 drivers in contention will have such support from the grid over any of the others.

Can't wait. Whilst Turkington is obviously the favorite, I have a funny feeling that Cammish is going to do what Turkington did last year and win the title even though he has only stepped onto the top step of the podium once all year.

The lovely British autumn weather could also play a big part in this.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by steve_r

The whole field let Shedden win it when he was head-to-head against Plato for the title a few years back. It was a miracle akin the the parting of the red sea. Chickens coming home to roost etc.

When your best lap is only the 6th fastest in the field, yet you manage to make up 15 places, then you know miracles are happening.

[FFSM]

Originally Posted by steve_r

The whole field let Shedden win it when he was head-to-head against Plato for the title a few years back. It was a miracle akin the the parting of the red sea. Chickens coming home to roost etc.

Whatever anyone thinks of Jason Plato, that was one of the most embarrassing, shameful episodes of motorsport I've witnessed.

Turned what should have been a super final race of the Championship into a complete farce.

[Akrapovic]

Shedden had half the field supporting him. Jason couldn't even get his team mates to support him. Say what you want, but that's the difference between making enemies and making friends. Make a career out of punting drivers and then surprised when nobody wants to help you.

BTCC has thrown competition yellows, has let drivers cause accidents on purpose, and pulls bingo balls out of a tub with special guests to decide grids. Anyone who thinks drivers helping one-another is embarrassing may have lost focus on what BTCC has become. It's a giant parody of itself.

[GT6]

Originally Posted by FFSM

Whatever anyone thinks of Jason Plato, that was one of the most embarrassing, shameful episodes of motorsport I've witnessed.

Turned what should have been a super final race of the Championship into a complete farce.

I agree i was there and it turned me into a Plato fan, as i hate what appeared to be people ganging up to depriving the fans of seeing real competition. but i understand others might disagree

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by GT6

I agree i was there and it turned me into a Plato fan, as i hate what appeared to be people ganging up to depriving the fans of seeing real competition. but i understand others might disagree

so if other drivers want to stick it to him for multiple justified reasons it's now all a farce ?

part of being a really good driver is not to upset most of the grid with various **** like that cos it comes back to bite you

[Johno.UK]

Part of being a really good driver is also not letting personal feelings get in the way of a professional job. I though the whole thing was disgusting personally with drivers behaving like it was a clique ridden club series. I became a fan of Goff after that as he was pretty much the only driver who put up a fight.

On a similar note I always hate the way Gow tells the drivers not to get involved with the championship leaders on track in the final meeting. That makes no sense at all to me.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Johno.UK

Part of being a really good driver is also not letting personal feelings get in the way of a professional job.

How do you feel about Senna taking out Prost? Would you say Senna was not a 'really good driver' as a result of his actions?

Originally Posted by Johno.UK

I though the whole thing was disgusting

I thought it a rather poetic form of justice - when people are prepared to sacrifice their own results just so a particular individual doesn't win I think it says more about that driver than the others. If it was only one or two drivers getting out of the way it's one thing, but when half the grid does it then that sends a message pretty loud and clear. I'd class Plato's many 'push to pass' moves as more 'disgusting' than drivers moving out of the way to ensure he doesn't win to be honest. From what I recall of being at that meeting most people near me were rather pleased at what was happening.

[Alfisti]

Exactly. You're on a track. In a race. You do not let the bloke behind pass you (unless he's your team mate).

It sucked and de-valued Sheddens championship to zero.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I thought it a rather poetic form of justice - when people are prepared to sacrifice their own results just so a particular individual doesn't win I think it says more about that driver than the others. If it was only one or two drivers getting out of the way it's one thing, but when half the grid does it then that sends a message pretty loud and clear. I'd class Plato's many 'push to pass' moves as more 'disgusting' than drivers moving out of the way to ensure he doesn't win to be honest. From what I recall of being at that meeting most people near me were rather pleased at what was happening.

if I remember it also was from a grid interview where he really critisized Colin Turkington for not supporting him despite the fact that Turks was in with real chance to win the title himself, think it was after race 1 where Turks finished 4th and plato 5th and Turks didn't give the place to him


actually in the indy standings Turks did finish ahead of Plato and was his 3rd Indy title

[mprmke]

It was the worst thing I'd ever seen all my life of watching motorsport.

No matter where you are on the grid and what place you're fighting for, as a driver in round 1, round 11, round 15 or whatever you fight as hard as you can, to the best of your ability to look after your own race and your own results. Why should it be any different in round 30?

The situation with Turkington and Plato was a tricky one. Turkington was still mathematically in with a chance of winning the title, but it was considerably less likely than Plato, so you can see both viewpoints on that one.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by mprmke

It was the worst thing I'd ever seen all my life of watching motorsport.

That suggests you haven't seen much motorsport. To me watching Plato deliberately punt drivers off is worse. I saw every getting of of Sheddens way very much a case of "you reap what you sow" for Plato.

Originally Posted by mprmke

No matter where you are on the grid and what place you're fighting for, as a driver in round 1, round 11, round 15 or whatever you fight as hard as you can, to the best of your ability to look after your own race and your own results. Why should it be any different in round 30?

That approach rules out any form of team orders / tactics - where do you stand on teams asking drivers to swap positions? Is that the second worst thing you've ever seen in motorsport?

Originally Posted by mprmke

The situation with Turkington and Plato was a tricky one. Turkington was still mathematically in with a chance of winning the title, but it was considerably less likely than Plato, so you can see both viewpoints on that one.

According to your own view on this it's clearcut - why should Turkington have let Plato past? To do so would have been one of the worst things you've ever seen in motorsport

[FFSM]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

How do you feel about Senna taking out Prost? Would you say Senna was not a 'really good driver' as a result of his actions?



I thought it a rather poetic form of justice - when people are prepared to sacrifice their own results just so a particular individual doesn't win I think it says more about that driver than the others. If it was only one or two drivers getting out of the way it's one thing, but when half the grid does it then that sends a message pretty loud and clear. I'd class Plato's many 'push to pass' moves as more 'disgusting' than drivers moving out of the way to ensure he doesn't win to be honest. From what I recall of being at that meeting most people near me were rather pleased at what was happening.

Senna vs Prost was a huge grudge match between two drivers, fuelled by resentment held by Senna (rightly or wrongly) at the perceived favouritism from Balestre. This was nothing like that.

Plato is no worse than anyone else on the grid with some of the moves he pulls, which suggests that the situation that arose was much more about his personality off-track.

At this level, these guys should be able to leave their personality issues in the garage once they get on the grid. It should never affect the result of a race, let alone decide a title - and certainly not in such a visible way.

It said a lot more about them than it did about Plato (or Shedden).

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by FFSM

Senna vs Prost was a huge grudge match between two drivers, fuelled by resentment held by Senna (rightly or wrongly) at the perceived favouritism from Balestre. This was nothing like that.

This was a grudge match between Plato and half the grid

Originally Posted by FFSM

Plato is no worse than anyone else on the grid with some of the moves he pulls,

I'd very much disagree with that - don't get me wrong there are certainly other drivers that aren't averse to the occasional 'push to pass' but Plato is a very consistent offender - and you know it's coming (prime example being shovelling Turkington off at Paddock - a couple of laps of failed moves followed by a punt).

Originally Posted by FFSM

which suggests that the situation that arose was much more about his personality off-track.

At this level, these guys should be able to leave their personality issues in the garage once they get on the grid. It should never affect the result of a race, let alone decide a title - and certainly not in such a visible way.

It said a lot more about them than it did about Plato (or Shedden).

If they can't do it in formula 1 'the pinnacle of motorsport' (see Senna vs Prost) then why would they be able to do that in the BTCC? To me the message that came across was that Shedden had more friends on the grid than Plato (or maybe more a case of Shedden had less enemies?)

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by mprmke

It was the worst thing I'd ever seen all my life of watching motorsport.

lol. Was it your first year watching motorsport?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by mprmke

No matter where you are on the grid and what place you're fighting for, as a driver in round 1, round 11, round 15 or whatever you fight as hard as you can, to the best of your ability to look after your own race and your own results. Why should it be any different in round 30?

I agree with the theory, in principle. But how do you tie that in with a direction from Alan Gow for people to 'not get involved with the championship battle'. To me, that is something that will be impossible to achieve.

Looking at R3, and take a single driver in isolation:
At the end of L9, Shedden was immediately behind Jordan. Jordan was not involved with either JP or GS's teams, so should he:
a) - interfere with the title by defending hard against Shedden?
b) - interfere with the title by allowing Shedden past with little effort?

Either way - some fans will feel he has done the wrong thing, and both actions can be interpreted as going against the guidance from Mr Gow.

In much the same way, we have to wonder how the audience would react to a driver being taken out (accidental or otherwise).
When Jordan had his accident at Donington, did the other driver(s) involved face accusations of destroying someone's title chances? Would the opinion be the same if something similar where to happen in R28?

It is a fact of sport that, as a title draws closer to a conclusion, the associated emotions will be escalated amongst most people involved. This leads to actions facing greater scrutiny, and a higher level of effect being attributed to lesser acts.

This is what I think Mr Gow is referring to when he gives his guidance - that drivers should be wary of acting in an emotional manner and leading to unwanted consequences. If this is held to be true though, then the majority of drivers who (as is deemed) gave Shedden an easy pass did not do so in a rash moment of insanity, or out of an emotional burst, but as a considered and calculated act.

Therefore, the result has to be looked at not as a travesty of sporting contest, but in the context of sportsmanship on and off the track influencing the outcome.

[S griffin]

That 2015 Brands Final was not the worst thing to happen to the series. No way. It just shows as someone said above you reap what you sow. Remember how Red Bull struggled to get another engine supplier after moaning about Renault all the time?

The way everyone didn't make it hard for Flash should be a lesson to all drivers to play fair and you will get the same in return.

[FFSM]

I think some let their anti-Plato sentiment rule their opinion over this...

I admit Shedden was never my favourite driver in the series, but he was just as likely to put someone off as Plato, if not more so (as Turkington seemed to find out on numerous occasions that year, if I recall correctly).

[S griffin]

No, don’t remember Shedden putting off many people in 2015

[mprmke]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

That suggests you haven't seen much motorsport. To me watching Plato deliberately punt drivers off is worse. I saw every getting of of Sheddens way very much a case of "you reap what you sow" for Plato.



That approach rules out any form of team orders / tactics - where do you stand on teams asking drivers to swap positions? Is that the second worst thing you've ever seen in motorsport?



According to your own view on this it's clearcut - why should Turkington have let Plato past? To do so would have been one of the worst things you've ever seen in motorsport

Total nonsense as well you know!

Team mates/team orders/team tactics are completely different. Of course team mates will let each other through in certain circumstances, but at the same time they’re fully entitled to fight each other in the right circumstances as well.

[porsche962fan]

reminds me of some weirdos Plato fanboys on the official forum calling for al drivers who let Shedden pass be called in front of some sports tribunal for fixing the championship

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by FFSM

I think some let their anti-Plato sentiment rule their opinion over this...

I admit Shedden was never my favourite driver in the series, but he was just as likely to put someone off as Plato, if not more so (as Turkington seemed to find out on numerous occasions that year, if I recall correctly).

That is absolutely untrue. At the final race at Brands Hatch, Jason drove into the back of Shedden 3 times in a single race. Under the 3 strike rule, Jason should've started at the back of the grid in Race 2. He was not penalised - because that would've ruined the championship battle.

We're talking about what's fair, whilst rules were ignored and drivers were told not to get in the way of the title battle. Let's be realistic here.

I understand the sentiment of not liking letting drivers though. However, in the wider picture, it absolutely fits with the BTCC narrative, and it absolutely fits with how rules were completely ignored to allow the title battle to continue.

[redshoes]

I seemed to have clicked on the wrong thread. I thought this was going to be about the 2019 season finale, but I seem to be stuck in pages of pointless bickering about something that happened 4 years.

Can someone let me know if/when this thread ever gets back on topic.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by redshoes

I seemed to have clicked on the wrong thread. I thought this was going to be about the 2019 season finale, but I seem to be stuck in pages of pointless bickering about something that happened 4 years.

Can someone let me know if/when this thread ever gets back on topic.

It'll come full circle when everyone lets Cammish through and he wins the title.