F3000 as a pre F1 category?

[Yoong Montoya]

It seems that F1 teams like to go for unknown drivers from formulas like F3 rather than sign proven F3000 stars these days. Is there any point in F3000 if many of its winners are forced to race in Formula Nissan or even CART or IRL? Drivers like Bourdais, Janqueira and Enge, who in my opinion could all do well in F1 if given a chance, have been passed up in favour of drivers like Button and Sato, both from F3, and even Raikkonen from Formula Renault. (Not that any of these drivers are cr@p in any way BTW, especially Raikkonen). And F3000 stars like Webber, Montoya, Heidfeld and Alonso have all shown that they can hack it in F1, and hopefully Justin Wilson will too if he gets to race in F1 next year.

But given that many F3000 stars nowadays are overlooked in favour of drivers from lower formulas like F3, does this mean that if no one recognises you in F3, you aren't good enough for F1 these days?

[woodbine]

I think it means that F1 cars are so easy to drive that you don't need all the steps up to F1. If they banned a lot of the driver aids as people in this forum have suggesting then it wouldn't be so easy to make the jump.

Also I'm sure that not long ago, one of the Superlicence requirements was that you had to have raced in an international class, such as F3000, but this now seems to be ignored or sidestepped.

The final problem I think is the name. What is Formula 3000? If Formula 1 is the top category then Formula 3000 must be right at the bottom. Rename it Formula 2 and it will at least make more sense. My six year is just getting the hang of F3 being below F1 but keeps asking "Where's F2?"

[ghinzani]

I think the one chassis formula has ultimately killed it... it was much better when there were Reynards, Marches, Ralts, Footworks, AGS's, Dallaras, Arrows, Tyrrels, RAM's, Williams's, Leyton Houses and Monacos as well as Lola's. The Lolas dont seem to have any meaning compared with the F1 car these days.

[JonesF1]

As a matter of fact Tomas Enge has raced in F1. Did 3 races for Prost at the end of 2001. I believe his lap times were on par with HHF which is an impressive feat for someone so new although he sucked in qualifying.

[Glen]

Originally posted by woodbine
I think it means that F1 cars are so easy to drive that you don't need all the steps up to F1. If they banned a lot of the driver aids as people in this forum have suggesting then it wouldn't be so easy to make the jump.

Well Montoya doesn't agree with you - he has said that he found the F1 cars quite a handful and very tricky at the limit. If Montoya thinks F1 cars are hard to drive, they are hard to drive.

[SALEEN S7R]

Personally im still all for F3000, since 1998 it has produced drivers in F1 such as, JPM, Heidfield, Bernoldi, Alonso, Webber, Enge and Pizzonia.

Next year it looks pretty certain that Wilsonw will be at a Minardi now hes actually fitted into the chasis and is just negotating sponsorship issues, Bourdais is a extremely good driver and who knows he could may well take up the extra seat at Minardi. Pantano has a test with Willams at the moment which could lead to a full time test role perhaps and has a outside chance of a F1 seat.

Name me a racing series that has produced 7 F1 race drivers in the last 4 years. Thats not combining all of the Formula 3 championships I mean just one single championship. I dont think you will find any.

[Super Tourer]

I think they need to make F3000 more relevant for today's market.

I would suggest slightly longer races with a mandatory pitstop, even re-fuelling - I think this would prepare drivers much more for F1.

When some F1 teams also ran F3000 teams, it seemed to give the series more relevance, as they could see a driver race in the series and test their F1 car at the same time.

Sadly they have largely abandoned this strategy, which probably says something about their general commitment to the lower formula......

[ringo]

i like f3000 as a whole but it is far to expensive so many talanted guys can't run in it. like i've said before i believe the best way to up the profile of the series is to have ALL F1 teams running junior teams in f3000. It's odd that a small teams like minardi ran a team but teams with big $$$ don't i.e ferrari, williams, etc.

[BootsOntheSide]

Surely the leading junior series in the world should be producing more than 7 drivers in 3 years!

Anyway, Bernoldi got to F1 through money, not talent, Enge was just a replacement for the injured Burti (who came in from F3), and Montoya couldn't get an F1 drive from his F3000 record, but from his CART record.

The fact that Pizzonia, despite two largely unimpressive seasons, ahs got an F1 drive when Pantano may miss out (though he was impressive in the test), and others like Jorg Muller have got nowhere form it, and guys like Brack and Montoya are forced to head Stateside to get a good drive, says it all about how F1 teams view F3000.

In my mind it has many intrinsic problems. The cars are not enough like F1 cars. The races don't allow F1 skills in strategy and set-up to be developed. The lack of testing doesn't allow rookies a chance to shine. And, primarily, the drivers mostly get in through sponsorship, and too many are not up to the job.

I don't expect Justin Wilson's signing to make the difference, although I'm delighted that he has the chance- over 16 years, only three races have been won by F3000 champs, with 2 of those flukes (Monaco 1996 and Canada 1995). The fact that it took that long to produce a winner among its champions (Alesi won it in 89, Panis 93, Montoya 98) shows that the old format was little better than the current one.

The idea of enforced F3000 junior teams is interesting, but it'd be unfair on guys like Nordic, Brand and Coloni, who have put so much series racing effort into their squads only to have them swallowed up by the Piranhas.

[SALEEN S7R]

Right so let me get this right, ur telling me that more than 7 drivers should come from one series in 4 years? (possibly 8.) Okay so ur just telling us that the teams should suddenly decide ok, lets get rid of the old guys?

Be serious! The truth is that there are so many talented drivers in F1 and that are still turning out the same results season after season and have been with the teams for many years so what ur telling me is they should risk throwing it all away on a hope that one of these young drivers does a better job? I know I woudnt.

F1 is so hard to get into nowadays, what you said about Benoldi making his way into F1 because of the red bull backing he brings thats partly true but he hasnt exactly covered himself in shame since he has been here. Also if u look more and more rival racing series have popped up over recent years, most notably Formula Nissan which would explain why theres not as many drivers coming through F3000 into F1 as there was say 10 years ago.

Also Enge might have been just a replacement but he did do well considering the lack of time that he had in the car before the race. The F3000 cars are now more like F1 than any other feeder category in the world u have to realise though that this category is on driver skill and not outright speed and technology. Also remember its a one make formula so they dont have any say really in what the car is like, apart from handling and the setups.

There is still the Minardi Junior team in F3000 and Arden who look like they are going to be made the offical Renault Junior team http://www.crash.net/news_detail.asp...&language_id=1

F3000 is a great championship all it needs is a ringmaster like F1 has Eccelstone and CART has Pook. If this happens the series will be great once again, Im also all for the idea of having longer races id say not 1hr like they were previously but say 1hr 15 minutes so the cars had to take on fuel and change tyres.

[SALEEN S7R]

As above ^

[BootsOntheSide]

If F3000 is supposed to be the official feeder series for F1, then surely Bernie should be the ringmaster for that as well. It is in his interest to promote an FIA-ran series which runs alongside 10 of the F1 races and provides young drivers the chance to show their worth.

Why have all these rival racing series popped up? There is obviously demand for them, teams such as DAMS, Prostar and KTR, not to mention Sauber's junior team, have all considered F3000 to be more expensive than it is worth in just 2 years.

The drivers who have starred the most on entry to F1 in the 4 years in question, have all come from elsewhere: Button and Raikonen from below F3000, and Montoya from CART. Webber you could say, but he got into F1 having frankly flopped in F3000 (driving for the leading team, yet he couldn't get much more than half the points of Justin Wilson The Invisible Giraffe, a virtual unknown until then), and his Sportscar experience must've counted for a lot.

Frank Williams, in all his years, has never hired a driver direct from F3000, yet he is known for giving untried drivers a chance- Hill, Button, Montoya and Zanardi, not to mention unproven guys like Rosberg, Jones, Frentzen and Mansell over the years. Of those only Zanardi flopped, and luck was against him, so he must be doing something right.

Likewise, most of renowned talent scout Eddie Jordan's many rookie signings, Barrichello excluded, have come from elsewhere- Japan (Irvine, Ralf), UK F3 (Sato), ITC Touring cars (Fisichella), German F3 (Michael).

I don't rate F3000 all that highly. Sorry, that's how I see it.

[SALEEN S7R]

And how I see it is that F3000 is the best racing series in the world just because Bernie hasnt gotton behind the series isnt F3000s fault. More drivers still come through F3000 to F1 than any other series even if u just look who has made the jump, Pizzonia, Benoldi, Webber and Enge and Heidfield. And also Wilson soon as hes fitted into the car now just has to get £3.5 million sponsorship which he says isnt a problem, and I for one belive him.

Sorry but thats just my point of view.

[Super Tourer]

Trouble is, that F1 has always expected to get it's drivers on the cheap. The investment they put in down the line compared to what they spend in F1 is tiny.

As a comparison, a top football team like Man Utd will have 30 or so playes on it's books to choose 11 from. It will have it's own football academy and scout's out all over the UK looking for new players - as well as signing expensive foreign players. Yet it does this, because if ther young kid turns out to be magic, they have made a great 'investment'.

In F1 it works the other way around, they expect a driver to prove themselves at somebody else's expense. Then and only then, they might enter into some sort of contract with them. If they are feeling really flush, they might bung the driver $100,000 and a free road car to test for the team for a year, or they might fund them through a season in another series to keep them 'sharp'.

This from team's spening $250M a year to go racing.....

At least McLaren have funded drivers like Lewis Hamilton from an early age, but these deals are few and far between.

So in other words, even if you're a talented kid, somebody has got to stump up around $600,000 in junior formula race costs, before F1 even takes a look at you.

[BootsOntheSide]

Not sure about the relevance of the football comparison there. Injuries are much more common in football, and it is typical for teams to use different players depending on the tactical situation, and in F1, it is not accepted to drop an out-of-form driver, unlike football. And of course they have 7 substitutes available on match day.

But, I see your point, although the tide is turning a little in that Mercedes, Honda and Toyota are backing many drivers. Unfortuantely, the drivers they are backing are often chosen more on the basis of marketability than talent (Nico Rosberg and Lewis Hamilton for instance)

Football is a lot cheaper than motor racing in terms of deveopment. It doesn't cost $600,000 for a footballer to be trained and developed from even age 7 to first team standard.

[a_r_c_a]

Think that you know what you're doing? F3000 is a poor show for poor minds.

[SALEEN S7R]

F3000 is the best feeder series in the world. Its been around for almost 18 years now and is still going strong. Name me another European championship which produces better drivers.

[BootsOntheSide]

Ah, so you've given up on trying to claim that F3000 is a better series for an F1 wannabe than CART? Now you only want to compare it to other European championships?

My point is that, for what it is supposed to be, it does not produce a big enough proportion of the grid, and can be made a lot better and more valuable. In the last 5 years, it has had more success as a feeder series for CART (Montoya, Junquiera, Da Matta, De Ferran, Brack etc)

[SALEEN S7R]

Da Ferran isnt that good, Brack is averege, Montoya is great Janqueria is great. F3000 has delivered drivers such as, Webber, Wilson, Bourdais, Enge, Heidfield.

Also Ive never actually said I didnt think F3000 was better than CART. I cant belive that CART is a better option for drivers than F3000. CART has a lot of old F1 rejects ie Nakano.

[a_r_c_a]

Gil De Ferran is top driver!

[flor]

some people think that the current f3000 cars ruin the driving style

[flor]

heidfeld was already a top driver before his f3000 time, for example he dominated trulli and the rest of the field on the last 96 nürburgring f3 race completely, in that in his first year

[BootsOntheSide]

At least Nakano and Takagi haven't done well in CART. ROSSET, Ricardo flaming Rosset, nearly one the F3000 title. I notice how your list of F3000 graduates no longer includes Montoya, you obviously now see where his skill comes from.

What I meant is that you said 'Name me another European championship which produces better drivers. ', the key word being EUROPEAN. CART is not predominantly European, so you're obviously open to the idea that it produces the best.

And I think most people who know anything about CART realise how good De Ferran is, he won the title twice and was easily the best on road and street courses. Plus he came in as runner up (behind Zanardi, no shame in losing to him (in CART)) in Derrick Walker's team, which has been backmarker ever since he left.

[SALEEN S7R]

Actually in 2003 CART will be fairly European with 3 rounds in Europe. And I was merley stating the facts not many ppl go to CART to F1 compared to F30001 to F1, u just proved that for me by listing only 2 drivers. Da Matta and JPM.

To me CART's first top 10 are all great drivers and about 2 of them world class the rest after the top 10 are old men or gentleman drivers. F3000 however this year in my opinon had 4 world class drivers, Bourdais, Enge, Pantano, and Pizzonia.

Boots on the side, lets just agree to disagee ok?

[JR Ewing]

I have always wondered how Rosset did so well - although Sospiri was another legend in his own lunchtime with a very talented wallet...